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b5_revisitedAck, I'm so sorry this is so tremendously late. I don't even have, like, a good story or excuse – I'm just the worst. So let's get crackin'.
When last we saw John, his time stabilizer had been damaged and he had been sent into a dystopian future on Centauri Prime, Londo threatening to execute him shortly. John is thrown into a holding cell. After waiting who knows how long, alone and in the dark, someone else is thrown in with him. Delenn! And she, of course, has no idea that it isn't her John to whom she's speaking. Which is why, of course, she tells him she loves him and kisses him.
When I was watching this show for the first time, I tore through seasons 3 and 4 as quickly as I've ever binged TV. Part of that binge was driven by the relentless pace of the plot – everything's building and building, the stakes and tension rising ever higher. It was hard to not want to watch just one more, just one more... But, I have to admit, part of the reason I binged was because of just how much I was shipping John and Delenn, and I knew that something would have to happen eventually. After “Sic Transit Vir,” I finally googled, in desperation, “when do John and Delenn first kiss.” And the link I read said, in essence, “this is actually a tricky one to answer.”
Isn't that the truth? This is the first time we as the audience see John and Delenn kiss. It's John's first kiss with Delenn. It is in no way Delenn's first kiss with John; presumably, at this point, she's kissed him literally thousands and thousands of times. Which is just so frakking weird, honestly. There's not a lot of doubt that John and Delenn would have ended up together anyway, but I can't help but wonder how much this experience changed John's outlook, his certainty in their relationship, and so on. It's one thing to be, like, “I like this person, I care about this person, I'm attracted to this person – I wonder if it would work out?” As opposed to, “I know for a fact that I marry and have a child with this person so I guess it does.” JMS was always more plot-oriented than character-oriented, so we never really get the follow-up on this; John tells Delenn he'll tell her what happened later, which we never see, but which would have been one hell of a conversation. We also don't get to see John grapple with this. Future-Delenn presents the situation they're in as one that is inescapable, unless they want to surrender to the Shadows. Does that also mean that John and Delenn becoming romantically involved to the extent that they have a son together is also inescapable? Not that John wouldn't necessarily care, but I do wonder what his thoughts on fate are – which to one extent we see a glimpse of in his trying to wiggle around what exactly Delenn's warning against his going to Z'ha'dum means.
Back to this scene specifically, there's a lot to unpack.
One of my favorite aspects of this scene is John trying to explain to Delenn that he's not “her” John, and her slow realization of what that means. She tells him that he had once told her of this incident, but she had “never really believed him.” I find that fascinating. We learn later that Delenn has her own little flash of the future, which ends up being confirmed. So she knows, whenever it is that John tells her about this, that what she saw turned out to be exactly what happened. So I don't think she means that she doesn't believe that he really saw a glimpse of the future, that he shared this moment with her, that he knew they were going to have a son who would in some way be in danger 17 years later; I think she does accept that all of that happens. I wonder if, instead, she isn't sure about the context. Her own glimpse was just that – a few moments. Perhaps she thinks that John saw an equivalent amount of the future and didn't know exactly what was going on – on Centauri Prime, with Londo, with this future war, etc. Which kind of makes sense – there's a lot going on, and it's a lot to take in.
Then, of course, there's the fact that John learns about their kid. “But we have a son.” “Yes. We have David.”
Look at their faces! And maybe that's why, as to my thoughts earlier, John doesn't really have an issue with knowing his fate in this particular instance. Clearly the man is pleased as all get out that he's going to one day have a son with Delenn. Delenn says that she's not afraid, now that she knows David is safe and now that she's with John; I suspect that John carries a particular certainty with him for the rest of his life. How can he be afraid when he knows what's coming?
John and Delenn are taken to speak to Londo, who has drunk his Keeper into a stupor long enough to help the two of them escape. Aren't they just so pretty together? Otherwise, this scene is really about Londo and G'Kar – to digress briefly, I love how the end of the story gets told in the middle of the show.
Just before this interlude ends, Delenn implores John not to go to Z'ha'dum. It's interesting to contrast how emphatic she was about how this situation on Centauri Prime could not be avoided, but that she still attempts to change the past when it comes to John. We don't know yet what the consequences of his journey to Z'ha'dum will be – Delenn, of course, does. I can't help but wonder if she's given thought to how they would have won the war without John flying that nuke to the planet; since it's Delenn, I'm sure she has. And yet she begs him not to do it anyway. Is it a moment of panic? She knows she has this one chance to maybe change things, buy more time together for the two of them. Is it worth it to potentially damn millions of lives lost for that chance? Which, if so, is such a great moment of character for Delenn – she's normally so selfless, but in this moment, faced with the knowledge that she only has a few years left with John, she throws all of that aside. Just in case.
John zaps back to B4, where Delenn has her own little glimpse into the future.
Does she know that she's seeing John during the sleep-watching ritual? Might she wonder if instead they had had sex? Does Delenn know that it's Anna who opens the door at the very end? So many unresolved questions. I'm sure that for both of them, the stresses of the Shadow battles would have immediately superceded a lot of those questions if they'd been asking them of themselves. The one thing I feel fairly certain about is that Delenn didn't suspect it was actually Anna; if she had, I think she would have tried to pre-game that situation a little, since she'd definitely led John to believe that Anna was for sure dead and gone – it's the reason they have their tiff in “Z'ha'dum.” The audience can recognize that voice, but Delenn wouldn't. The dropping of the snowglobe is ominous for us, but I'm not sure it would have meant that much to her.
At the end, Sinclair takes the station back into the past to fight in the previous Shadow war; he turns into Valen (!!!) and all that jazz. Before he leaves, though, Zathras explains that Sinclair, John, and Delenn are all “the One,” which is a little too mystical for me personally but that clearly has a lot of meaning for those three. And certainly within the context of the show, those three characters drive or otherwise act as a lightning rod for a huge amount of the significant action.
It was sort of strange, the first time I watched this two-parter, feeling like my ship had definitely gone canon (I mean, they have a kid together), but still waiting for it to go canon for real? We don't get what I would consider their actual, honest-to-God, real “first” kiss for another couple episodes. Time travel is a hell of a thing.
When last we saw John, his time stabilizer had been damaged and he had been sent into a dystopian future on Centauri Prime, Londo threatening to execute him shortly. John is thrown into a holding cell. After waiting who knows how long, alone and in the dark, someone else is thrown in with him. Delenn! And she, of course, has no idea that it isn't her John to whom she's speaking. Which is why, of course, she tells him she loves him and kisses him.
When I was watching this show for the first time, I tore through seasons 3 and 4 as quickly as I've ever binged TV. Part of that binge was driven by the relentless pace of the plot – everything's building and building, the stakes and tension rising ever higher. It was hard to not want to watch just one more, just one more... But, I have to admit, part of the reason I binged was because of just how much I was shipping John and Delenn, and I knew that something would have to happen eventually. After “Sic Transit Vir,” I finally googled, in desperation, “when do John and Delenn first kiss.” And the link I read said, in essence, “this is actually a tricky one to answer.”
Isn't that the truth? This is the first time we as the audience see John and Delenn kiss. It's John's first kiss with Delenn. It is in no way Delenn's first kiss with John; presumably, at this point, she's kissed him literally thousands and thousands of times. Which is just so frakking weird, honestly. There's not a lot of doubt that John and Delenn would have ended up together anyway, but I can't help but wonder how much this experience changed John's outlook, his certainty in their relationship, and so on. It's one thing to be, like, “I like this person, I care about this person, I'm attracted to this person – I wonder if it would work out?” As opposed to, “I know for a fact that I marry and have a child with this person so I guess it does.” JMS was always more plot-oriented than character-oriented, so we never really get the follow-up on this; John tells Delenn he'll tell her what happened later, which we never see, but which would have been one hell of a conversation. We also don't get to see John grapple with this. Future-Delenn presents the situation they're in as one that is inescapable, unless they want to surrender to the Shadows. Does that also mean that John and Delenn becoming romantically involved to the extent that they have a son together is also inescapable? Not that John wouldn't necessarily care, but I do wonder what his thoughts on fate are – which to one extent we see a glimpse of in his trying to wiggle around what exactly Delenn's warning against his going to Z'ha'dum means.
Back to this scene specifically, there's a lot to unpack.
One of my favorite aspects of this scene is John trying to explain to Delenn that he's not “her” John, and her slow realization of what that means. She tells him that he had once told her of this incident, but she had “never really believed him.” I find that fascinating. We learn later that Delenn has her own little flash of the future, which ends up being confirmed. So she knows, whenever it is that John tells her about this, that what she saw turned out to be exactly what happened. So I don't think she means that she doesn't believe that he really saw a glimpse of the future, that he shared this moment with her, that he knew they were going to have a son who would in some way be in danger 17 years later; I think she does accept that all of that happens. I wonder if, instead, she isn't sure about the context. Her own glimpse was just that – a few moments. Perhaps she thinks that John saw an equivalent amount of the future and didn't know exactly what was going on – on Centauri Prime, with Londo, with this future war, etc. Which kind of makes sense – there's a lot going on, and it's a lot to take in.
Then, of course, there's the fact that John learns about their kid. “But we have a son.” “Yes. We have David.”
Look at their faces! And maybe that's why, as to my thoughts earlier, John doesn't really have an issue with knowing his fate in this particular instance. Clearly the man is pleased as all get out that he's going to one day have a son with Delenn. Delenn says that she's not afraid, now that she knows David is safe and now that she's with John; I suspect that John carries a particular certainty with him for the rest of his life. How can he be afraid when he knows what's coming?
John and Delenn are taken to speak to Londo, who has drunk his Keeper into a stupor long enough to help the two of them escape. Aren't they just so pretty together? Otherwise, this scene is really about Londo and G'Kar – to digress briefly, I love how the end of the story gets told in the middle of the show.
Just before this interlude ends, Delenn implores John not to go to Z'ha'dum. It's interesting to contrast how emphatic she was about how this situation on Centauri Prime could not be avoided, but that she still attempts to change the past when it comes to John. We don't know yet what the consequences of his journey to Z'ha'dum will be – Delenn, of course, does. I can't help but wonder if she's given thought to how they would have won the war without John flying that nuke to the planet; since it's Delenn, I'm sure she has. And yet she begs him not to do it anyway. Is it a moment of panic? She knows she has this one chance to maybe change things, buy more time together for the two of them. Is it worth it to potentially damn millions of lives lost for that chance? Which, if so, is such a great moment of character for Delenn – she's normally so selfless, but in this moment, faced with the knowledge that she only has a few years left with John, she throws all of that aside. Just in case.
John zaps back to B4, where Delenn has her own little glimpse into the future.
Does she know that she's seeing John during the sleep-watching ritual? Might she wonder if instead they had had sex? Does Delenn know that it's Anna who opens the door at the very end? So many unresolved questions. I'm sure that for both of them, the stresses of the Shadow battles would have immediately superceded a lot of those questions if they'd been asking them of themselves. The one thing I feel fairly certain about is that Delenn didn't suspect it was actually Anna; if she had, I think she would have tried to pre-game that situation a little, since she'd definitely led John to believe that Anna was for sure dead and gone – it's the reason they have their tiff in “Z'ha'dum.” The audience can recognize that voice, but Delenn wouldn't. The dropping of the snowglobe is ominous for us, but I'm not sure it would have meant that much to her.
At the end, Sinclair takes the station back into the past to fight in the previous Shadow war; he turns into Valen (!!!) and all that jazz. Before he leaves, though, Zathras explains that Sinclair, John, and Delenn are all “the One,” which is a little too mystical for me personally but that clearly has a lot of meaning for those three. And certainly within the context of the show, those three characters drive or otherwise act as a lightning rod for a huge amount of the significant action.
It was sort of strange, the first time I watched this two-parter, feeling like my ship had definitely gone canon (I mean, they have a kid together), but still waiting for it to go canon for real? We don't get what I would consider their actual, honest-to-God, real “first” kiss for another couple episodes. Time travel is a hell of a thing.
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Date: 2017-02-27 06:28 am (UTC)Learn more about LiveJournal Ratings in FAQ (https://www.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse?faqid=303).
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Date: 2017-03-20 12:02 am (UTC)What about the bathrobe controversy? I am about to post the Shadow Dancing recap so I'll touch on it, but it comes up here first.
The 'Do not go to Z'ha'dum' directive I took as sheer panic, and a bit of opportunism. A chance to change the past, one last chance...she only has 3 years to go and it must be an awful weight to bear. And here she thought it was going to be all right--she was going to die with him, there on Centauri Prime! No living on for year after lonely year. Then a last minute reprieve for them both, and she just cracked wide open. It was one of Delenn's most 'human' moments, I think, aside from the terrible agony of the episode Z'ha'dum.
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Date: 2021-02-28 07:00 pm (UTC)