"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 2X14, "There All the Honor Lies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan gets into trouble when he kills a Minbari in self-defense.

Extra reading:
The article for "There All the Honor Lies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

"They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one.

I have never had much time for the "who stole what from whom debate", especially as
a) I do not have a problem with appreciating both shows (same as you, it seems); I was a Trekkie before I ever knew about B5.
b) Stories in related genres, and especially in the same medium, are bound to a certain extent by the genre itself, and they are written by people who know what went before, and oftn what is going on concurrently; consequently, there will always be overlaps, both deliberate and accidental
c) DS9 and B5 went out pretty much at the same time, so they were predestined for all kind of cross-fertilization of this kind, probably going *both ways*.

But actually, until you made that comment (and I don't think we disagree much there) I had forgotten about the whole thing, or rather, filed it under "irrelevant" in the back of my brain. So when i saw the episode a few days ago, the only thing the writeres seemsed to take pot-shopts at was the concept of merchandizing. I am not sure how much was already goping on at the time, or whether the things in the shop were all real, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were! I know the bear was a private joke.

Yes and that line about the Londo doll was divine...

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo.

Yes, but I'm biased :-)

I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle ... doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Absolutely: I love both my space station shows, and to this day refuse to choose between them.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

Welllll, that's not quite how I'd put it. Because Londo also succeeds, and I don't mean in the bitterly ironic sense Elric did. In this case, he may not be able to patch up Vir's relationship with his family, but because he shows Vir that he, Londo, genuinenly cares for Vir, Vir is able to maintain his role as Londo's conscience. More than that: by s5, we get that extraordinary scene from The very long night of Londo Mollari where in Londo's mind, Vir actually is his reason to continue living. (Mind!Vir's plea to turn around is the one Londo finally listens to, after Vir says in reply to Londo's "but wouldn't it be better if I died now?" "I would miss you".) Their friendship survives, and not least due to it Vir is one day in a position to become Emperor and restore Londo's beloved Centauri Prime.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, but much of this is down more to Londos feeling/intention than his actions. He means well and he cares, politically and personally, but the positive outcomes we see are not usually the result of his actions themselves (though I agree that his intentions do have some effect).
For instance, even though Londo's support means that Vir will eventually be emperor and in a position to reatore Centauri Prime, there might have been no need for restoration had it not been for Londo's actions in the first place.
To me these look more like a case of redemption, where destiny/God/the Universe acknowledges the general goodness of the characters (more to Vir's than Londo's, who is less "innocent" in his ways).

Having said that, though, in this episode Londo's reference to Lennier's earlier lie does have immediate and important positive effects, so even Londo is capable of getting it right :-)