"Chrysalis" discussion

[ruuger]

And so we have reached the end of season 1.

This is the discussion post for the episodes 1X22, "Chrysalis". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:

Garibaldi discovers a conspiracy to assasinate the president. Meanwhile Londo gets help from his new allies.

Extra reading:

The article for "Chrysalis" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing Dukhat in "In the Beginning" telling Delenn that if she ever doubts herself, she should look in the face of a Vorlon. And I like Dukhat and all, but I wonder how the Minbari let themselves be manipulated by the Vorlons. I mean, I like Delenn both pre- and post-transformation, but she gave up a lot for this, and I'm not completely sure what the point was other than to make her attractive to human men. And that's just really skeevy. I know that to her, this was largely penance for her sins, but I think I would like the Vorlons more if they didn't feed on that kind of thing.

Okay, that was a ramble, but this episode makes me think about how differently I thought about the Vorlons after I had seen all of the series.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I think of the parallel transformations of Sinclair -> Valen and Delenn's transformation in the chrysalis was to bring home the similarity of Minbari & human souls. As far as making her more attractive, I don't know that there's a reason to think that Sheridan would have found her less attractive pre-transformation, but perhaps the transformation was needed so they would be physically compatible to have a child, thus further entwining the fates of the races? I don't remember if that's explicitly stated, though.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

No, I think the compatibility for childbearing was the reason; I didn't word that well when I said it was just about being attractive. And maybe I'm just not willing to cut them a break, but it makes me uncomfortable that the Vorlons encouraged this - using the power that they had set up by making themselves appear angelic to all these races. I don't trust their motives.

My belief is that the soul thing was an explanation that the Minbari believed but that the show itself was not making a judgment on. So Delenn thought her transformation was to stop the "bleeding" of Minbari souls to human, but the whole thing is predicated on them concluding that the souls were leaving after examining Jeff and discovering that he "had Valen's soul" when what the triluminary might have been detecting is DNA equalities.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

Oh, I get that at the Vorlons' motives being sketchy, I just hadn't questioned the transformation itself before. And I have to admit, I always took the Vorlon/human souls parallel at face value, too, although -- since the show never really approves or dismisses anybody's theology -- it makes more sense to think of it as the Minbaris' interpretation. And you're right, the similarity to Valen would be there because he WAS Valen, and the Minbari religious leaders, looking for something they wanted to see if they were against the war in the first place, extrapolated that to all humans. Huh. This is why rewatching is so interesting!

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

My rewatches have made me fascinated with the triluminary and chrysalis and where they came from, so this is something that I've thought about quite a bit. Because they never do tell us who created the Great Machine, and the triluminaries and chrysalises came from that planet. That is the entitled-fan-wants-to-know question that I NEED JMS to answer some day.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Oh hah. R has a huge theory about this, (the Great Machine and the triluminaries) and periodically pesters me to write it up for him. I can never quite grasp his intricate explanation for the triluminary's travels through time, and how many there are are at which time. Sigh. You suppose JMS touches on it in all those posts-from-years-gone-by in the new books?

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, I am going to start pestering you to write it up now, cause I want to know what he's thinking! He could maybe do an outline or timeline for you, and you could use that to ground you when writing it.

I have never seen anything about it anywhere, and I'm not buying those new books. Hopefully if somebody knows the answer, they'll tell somewhere, but I have specifically searched for this and come up short.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I agree with this: the Vorlons had their own particular motives and they weren't terrifically concerned with anyone else (except maybe Kosh the rebel). And their manipulation of the Minbari was not terribly attractive.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

I believe that Kosh genuinely came to care for Sheridan. I don't know about Delenn.

[swashbuckler332.livejournal.com]

The ambiguity about the Vorlons is what makes Kosh such an interesting character especially in retrospect. Statements that he made that seemed enigmatic the first time around make a lot of sense subsequent times. His mission to Babylon 5 was essentially to position member worlds of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds into opposition against the Shadows. I felt that Kosh's respect for Sheridan made him warm up to him (at least as warm as a Vorlon could possibly get). But while he may have made personal allowances for Delenn, his purpose is to use her.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's my feeling as well. I never saw any sign that Kosh *liked* Delenn. And him giving her encouragement to transform doesn't seem to me like an act of pure kindness.

[swashbuckler332.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Kosh has any reason during the first season to have warmed up to any of the younger races, even Delenn. I think that at that moment he is simply doing what the Vorlons want.

Sheridan comes to him looking for knowledge, and I think that process made him feel that these species may indeed have some potential (I also think that he is impressed with what Sheridan can do). Yes, I do feel that Kosh developed some affection for Sheridan, and by extension felt somewhat protective towards some others, but I think that was something that he developed, not something that was there the whole time.

[beatrice_otter]

They manipulated everyone, not just the Minbari, and no, it's not particularly attractive. As to Vorlon motivations, I don't think attractiveness/childbearing are an issue. Sinclair had to change because otherwise the Minbari wouldn't have accepted him, even with the gift of Babylon 4. From his appearance in the past, and what he said of the future (i.e. the present of Babylon 5), the Vorlons knew that Humans and Minbari would need to fight together against the shadows. A dramatic picture of what is possible (and a pointed reminder to the Minbari of what is necessary) might be the kind of thing they want. Besides, they probably know from Sinclair/Valen that she did.