b5_revisited | "The Parliament of Dreams" discussion [spoilers]

That's so interesting! I did not know that. And, yeah, ironic.

The first time this happened, I was at a Beltane festival, and this large Druid was acting as priest. He had on a Ranger pin, and started reciting the Declaration. It was pretty cool to recognize it, and even cooler that JMS mentioned it in one of the commentary tracks, after I posted about it on usenet...

No, we don't know yet, though the reporter last week gave a hint when she mentioned that no one but Sinclair would have Garibaldi and implied there was something dishonorable about the way his last assignments ended.

It just struck me that Garibaldi, who otherwise enjoys hanging out with Londo, really looks uncomfortable during the banquet, when based on the information the viewers have at the time one would expect him to enjoy himself much as Ivanova does - but it makes sense if one remembers he's not on the wagon for that long, and it has to be really hard for him.

Oh, in early season 3 creepy is part of the, err, menu when it comes to Londo/G'Kar. When he sings the song in s3, btw, it's the first time he says, err, sings "Londo", not "Mollari", which is the form of address he usually employs. (I think here are only three or so time when he says "Londo", and it's usually when he's in extremis - as during Dust to Dust, when he shouts "show me your secrets, Londo!")

We can see Vir has grown far more confident in his relationship with Londo, and utterly comfortable around him.

...when drunk ;-)

This episode was when I shouted, "This is Definitely Not Star Trek!" This is when it finally broke away from the Star Trek Shadow. See Gene is an Atheist who believes Religion isn't irrelevant. Joe is an atheist who believes in religion, just not for him. And this episode where religion has an important part, but is just Yet Another Plot Point/ another part of life, is the point where that break in styles/beliefs shows.
And I also liked the idea where, in Star Trek - there is a Break in Continuity between our earth and theirs, in Babylon 5 - there is a continuation of Earth history from here to then. You see it first in the Second Most Important Thing, but you see it even more this time with the Religions Line Up at the end. This Science Fiction has its roots in Our History.
It was so Not a Star Trek Thing.
The fact that the Story is Great. So many quotes come from this episode -
"But in Purple I'm Stunning."
"He's become one with his inner self." "He's passed out" "That, too."
"You will know pain, you will know fear, and then you will die."
All the Players are now on the stage, and the guns are being placed on the wall. The show is finally getting its legs.
I usually give a new SF show about 5 episodes to find its legs, and this as the fifth episode was the perfect show for that.
PS That was also true for ST-OS, ST-NG, ST-DS9 (though it actually needed less set up because of what it was). Even ST-V was ok by then (only later it floundered). Note ST-Enterprise was still floundering at 5, which is why I left.

Alien Hybrid Time Jesus

Seriously? I must admit, I've only glanced through a few summaries of the original plot, and while I was aware that Sinclair and Delenn got together, and that they pulled some other time shenanigans with Babylon 4, I didn't realize their kid did anything!

Aww, this is one of my favorite episodes! I don't have a whole lot to add, just that the black flower the assassin leaves confused me to no end when I finally got to "Passing through Gethsemane," since I immediately assumed it was the same deal, and I couldn't figure out what the Narn would have against some monk.

I love how varied the designs are for the Centauri figures--the god of the underworld looks like those little gargoyle statues you buy in souvenir shops, while Li looks faintly Hindu in design (the pose, mostly). Which might just mean they were buying whatever props looked vaguely apropriate and spray-painting them gold or something, but I like it.

Yeah, there was a second series in the works where their magically aging time travel baby comes back to save Minbar.

We have that fresh, new species smell.

Considering the early Londo/Vir dynamic, it's a really disturbing thought that Londo actually ends up doing best by Vir. Brrrr.

You know, Andreas Katsulas reminds me most of my brother-in-law, who is also a baby whisperer.

I can imagine times for sure where Minbari from different castes or clans would have reasons for their families *not* to know about their romances...

Now if only Stephanie Meyers had the *same* power of felicitous coincidence in play when she was writing Breaking Dawn...

We have that fresh, new species smell.

So THAT was the reason for that look on Delenn's face when she sees Sheridan the first time. Umm..umm..good.

As for Londo & Vir, I heard that theory on the podcast I think. When Londo sends Vir away to Minbar, to get him out of his hair and maybe to protect him too. It's kind of sweet, in a way. And really Vir gets the best of it in the end; poor old Na'toth has to go into recovery after being forgotten in jail, and Lennier's sad fate as teep bait.

Minbari mixed marriages...innovation or aberration? Next, on Oprah.

Good grief. Comes back as in becomes Valen, or is that too logical?

One of the things I thought was interesting about this episode was that it introduced a more modern sensibility about relationships than one usually found in science fiction of the era. Regardless of how well you think it played or didn't, it was pretty easy to relate to the idea that Sinclair would have somebody like Catherine in his life.

Of course, it also revealed G'Kar to be something like the Narn equivalent of Steve Dallas. Which I must admit I found hysterical.

Hey, we’re getting into the good stuff now!

- There’s a fair number of aliens at the Centauri ceremony – including at least one Narn. League ambassadors, civilians just there for a free meal, or did the Centauri dominance of the region give their religion a chance to aquire at least a few followers among their former subject peoples?

- The Centauri god of the underworld is also protector of front doors? Interesting – presumably a god of liminality, then, like Hermes or Janus.

- Of all the characters who left the show, I think Na’toth is the one I most wish had stayed on. She gets a great introduction here, and I’d really liked to have seen her as a more level-headed assistant to G’kar during the rest of the series.

- G’kar can breathe unaided in n’grath’s quarters – I think this is the only time his ‘gill implants’ from the pilot are even obliquely mentioned.

- G’kar swapping the fruit he’s given is one of my favourite jokes in the whole series.

- The Narn don’t seem to have organised a ceremony. Could be it already happened, or G’kar cancelled it so he could focus on avoiding assassins. Could just be the Narn religion is meant to be private – though G’kar seems pretty casual about lending the Book of G’Quan to Garibaldi later on. Could be the Narn aren’t generally religious – either G’kar’s somewhat unusual among Narn, or that they tend to consider their beliefs more philosophies than religions. We never really get a good idea of how common followers of G'Quan are among the greater Narn population - though there only seems to be a couple on station in "By Any Means Necessary", and Na'Toth isn't religious.

- On the subject of characters who left the show, I’ve always felt that had Sinclair stayed on, and assuming Sakai would have ended up with the Anna Sheridan plot – a reasonable assumption – well, that’d be pretty damn depressing to watch, yes? I mean, the return of (shadow)Anna isn’t too bad, because it’s pretty obvious what’s going on, and we never really knew the original – but if it was the return of a character we knew and who I at least rather liked… Plus, it’d cast something of a pall over a Sinclair/Delenn relationship if it was starting with Sakai only recently missing. I think at least as far as this story thread is concerned, things worked out for the best.

- The ending is great – though, as people have pointed out, it does stretch credulity that Earth organised the festival without first giving Sinclair some pretty clear guidelines on how human religions should be represented. A little odd that Sinclair refers to one of the representatives as simply ‘an Aborigine’, rather than by the specific tribe he belongs to…

- The Narn don’t seem to have organised a ceremony. Could be it already happened, or G’kar cancelled it so he could focus on avoiding assassins. Could just be the Narn religion is meant to be private – though G’kar seems pretty casual about lending the Book of G’Quan to Garibaldi later on. Could be the Narn aren’t generally religious – either G’kar’s somewhat unusual among Narn, or that they tend to consider their beliefs more philosophies than religions. We never really get a good idea of how common followers of G'Quan are among the greater Narn population - though there only seems to be a couple on station in "By Any Means Necessary", and Na'Toth isn't religious.

I think JMS mentioned that in his background for this, the followers of G'Quan and the followers of G'Lan couldn't agree on a presentation. On a production side it was probably because the Narn got a lot of focus in G'Kar's plot and there wasn't time in the episode. Still, it's good we got to see more later.

Yes, I agree, and more so since I've just reached Deathwalker in my re-watch, which included a lot of stuff about Talia made irrelevant by the actress leaving.

A pity.

Also, I've just read what JMS had to say about the episode on The Lurkers' Guide and it's obvious he meant to do a lot more with Sinclair and Sakai, and it just didn't happen.

Edited 2009-02-24 11:39 (UTC)

That is ironic. A member of my religion is spotted in the crowd scenes in The Gathering, but not in the parade, and it's a well-known world religion, or I thought it was. Oh well.

Edited 2009-02-24 11:33 (UTC)

May I ask what your religion is?

It's Sikh. Wasn't born one but define myself as after many, many years of marriage.

I've always thought that the reason the humans were so important to winning the war against the Shadows (as the Vorlons had said to Dukhat over a decade earlier) was that they could tip either way. Human culture, compared to the other races, is very mixed and very dynamic and there's plenty for both of the Old races to work with. As a result, the humans end up splitting.

Add to this that one major race (Minbari) is definitely mostly pro-Vorlon, and one of the Narn/Centauri will probably go Shadow with the other being conquered as a result, and the only major race left is the key to the whole war.

"Humans are presented as more diverse than the other races, but I think that is a sign of our youth"

That's sort of what I was trying to say; that I wouldn't think demonstrating our immaturity would be a positive. Maybe we're sought after as Shadow fighters cause we're too young and stupid to know we can't win?

I was thinking of it as being unusual in its development. Instead of fighting until all the cultures were destroyed or subsumed into a whole, we decided to accept differences between us. I think this would be seen by the Vorlons as 'forming order out of chaos' (which I think is a quote from some of the books), and thus as showing anti-Shadow potential.

Of course, we also have some quite pro-Shadow potential as the Lumati point out when they turn up. I've always thought we were important as allies because we could also become powerful enemies of the Vorlon cause.

I liked Sinclair, but sometimes things happen for the best. They really, really do.

I prefer Sinclair to Sheridan, but I also think the long-term plot would have been much less natural seeming if he had stayed. It's better to have the responsibility for heroism spread out over two people than shoehorn it all into one.

I really must go through the Lurker's Guide again! I started my rewatch a few months ago and have almost finished S1.

It's very informative. I didn't even know it existed until this community opened.

I used to visit it after every ep when they showed them here, years after the US. :-)

I really need to make myself a B5 icon.

"The Parliament of Dreams" discussion [spoilers]

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