b5_revisited | "Midnight on the Firing Line" discussion [spoilers]

Huh?
No-one in yet?

OK, I'll start:
What struck me most is how impressively/depressingly relevant the rather loud political overtones still are, well over a decade later!
I also remember thinking of B5's San Diego bombing on a certain day in 2001.

Strong start to the series proper IMHO.

I agree. This was the first episode I saw on my 'real' viewing (prior to that it had been an episode here, an episode there, and the expected confusion and apathy). I thought it was terrific. Whenever folks talk about starting people at Season Two, I disagree, strongly. There are some really weak S1 episodes, but MotFL is not one of them.
And I was watching 05-06 and the political implications rung loud and clear to me.

I agree about season 1. There are some not so good eps but Season 1 sets the tone for the entire arc and sows the seeds for what is to come.

This episode also is very interesting in that you see the Narn as the real villains until later episodes when you see that the Centauri are never innocent either and that there is no end to the animosity between the two.

And yes, the San Diego terrorist bombing gave me pause, as I'm sure it did everyone.

I have to say that I am really enjoying this rewatching. I still believe this to be the best television series ever produced.

I tried to keep track of all the plotlines/plot points that were introduced in this episode:

Santiago/his VP with many chins who is not to be trusted
Ivanova's history with PsiCorps
PsiCorps' history and reputation
the Narns' involement in the Earth-Minbari War
Sinclair's unusual attitude towards the Minbari
Minbari honor
Garibaldi's facility with computers
Ivanova and Talia
Londo's foretold death and G'Kar's involvement in it
Twenty years from now important things will happen
Centauri prescient dreams
the Narns want war, Londo is prepared to oblige
the Minbari take the long view of events
Sinclair is clever, and EarthGov is cautious, and needs to be circumvented

I'm forgetting some, but I am amazed at how much is packed in here.

The ambiguity of good and evil is an ongoing theme I really enjoyed.
I really, really wish we had seen JMS's view of the Alliance. It was going to be the usual mix of good and evil that all political institutions are.

I don't really have any spoileriffic content to go here, I just wanted to put it here instead of elsewhere because it involves everything about his performance, so:

I will damn well miss Andreas Katsulas forever, and that is solely because of his portrayal of G'Kar.

I love G'Kar's laugh, his craziness, his anger, his poetry, his humor, I love it so much, and I am always so amazed that all of that is already there from this early on.

It's true of the pilot as well, but it's especially true in this ep because of how much of him there is in it and because of how much that comes through even though the writing (and don't get me wrong, I love that bait and switch in the plot) pretty clearly wants the audience to think the Narns are vengeful and crazy.

I love that he's still a person in spite of that, and while some of that is JMS' doing, those little nuances in JMS' words wouldn't have worked if Katsulas hadn't been so fricking amazing from day one.

There's so much going on in this episode and I'm sure I'll jump in on discussions about that later on, but as far as my reactions to it right now are concerned I just wanted to focus on G'Kar. Because damn, but I miss Andreas Katsulas.

This episode stands out for me for two main reasons.

One - the whole Londo and his dreams of his death. When I first watched the series (around '94), I thought that it was words - that it wouldn't be followed through... This happened quite a bit to me in the first season (Soul Hunter is another episode that I hit upon this), too many loose ends and that magical 'reset' button being used in other shows had made me wary of such things (yes, I am looking at you Star Trek: TNG!).

I do believe the appropriate phrase is 'oh ye of little faith!';)

It was only on re-watching the series in '04 that it struck me that JMS knew exactly what he was doing and as others have said, sowing the seeds for the series, right from the word 'go'.

Two - Garibaldi's 'second' favourite thing in the universe.

The way that the shot of the station is juxtaposed with Duck Dodgers asking "And you want me to find Planet X, is that it?" was just such a breath of fresh air and one of the (many, many) reasons why I love this show so much.

I adore the Looney Tunes cartoons, so to see them referenced in a TV show is always good but to see it referenced in a Sci-Fi show (remember - Star Trek was pretty much the be all and end all) was just fantastic.

Along with the political aspect (bit of a history buff), it helped to flag up to me that this show was pretty much the complete antithesis of Star Trek (TOS - love, TNG - not so much) and that it was something I should be watching.

Edited 2009-01-25 20:43 (UTC)

Because damn, but I miss Andreas Katsulas.

Ditto. I was 'fine' watching Lost Tales until they showed the images of the main races. When it came to the Narn, epitomised by G'Kar, I just felt my heart break. Swearing and tears soon followed afterwards.

I didn't see the show when it came out, and with the exception of Day of the Dead have mostly only seen the episodes and movies once. My watching of the series happened on dvd about 4 years ago.
That said, watching this episode again was almost revelatory.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Katsulas was so amazing. Only after seeing The Lost Tales extras I really understood just how much *he* contributed to the character.

I'd forgotten how strong this episode was, right out of the gate.

This is really my first re-watch of any B5, and I'm impressed/surprised to see how much is set up in this episode. The Susan/Talia tension was really there from the start. And watching G'Kar's arrogance regarding the Narn-Centauri conflict -- paradoxically my heart *hurt* for him because I'm watching now with the knowledge that the positions are eventually going to reverse.

I got fixated on Kosh saying that the Narn and/or Centauri are a dying race. I tend to get fixated on everything Kosh says XD

Was there ever any 'additional info' about the Vorlons precognitive abilities? Or was it just that they knew the races and could predict future based on that? Could he foresee the Centauri 'siding' with the Shadows and being a Vorlon therefore see them doomed? The Narns having lost their telepaths and defenceless against the Shadows? Or so hell bent on destroying the Centauri that it would ruin them?

Considering it was 1994, the Susan/Talia thing was a huge deal.

I'd been given hints that there was a canon gay relationship in the show so I immediately fixed on them as the most likely (though I did originally wonder if it would involve Delenn and one of the other Minbari).

I'm sure if I'd been watching as it broadcast, though, I would just have figured I had slash-goggles on and been pleasantly surprised when it happened (as I was with the recent Buffy comic arc, or when I read 'Brokeback Mountain' back before everybody knew what it was about).

Yes! It's a really great episode, and very very B5 right from the start. While there are some things about the show that take a while to settle down, it has a genuine personality right from the beginning.

I'd forgotten how much I loved Ivanova, though, seriously. Her first episode and she's already making cracks like "fifteen things, all of them annoying" and the one where she's threatening to snap Garibaldi's hands off at the wrist. This is not a show that's slow getting into itself.

hints that there was a canon gay relationship
In that case, it's pretty obvious.
Without prior knowledge it could be seen either way, Talia wanting very much to be Susan's friend, or something else, women can express so much more emotion without being seen gay. I think that demonstrates the aspect of the show I love the most. The story is paced so well, watcher gets hints of what is going to happen, and there is much room for speculation in the storyline of every character.
I can't remember how I saw them in 1997 when this aired in my country. Back then I didn't even know slash existed. Rewatching it, I couldn't *not* see it when I already knew what was going to happen.

G'Kar and Londo carry this episode on the strength of great acting from those two. And there, as in so many other ways, the trend of the series is started in episode one. All kinds of plot threads begin hear: the Narn/Centauri war, the raiders sub-plot that will be spun around mid-season, the Earth presidency and its fallout, the PsiCorp and the Talia-Ivanova storyline. Just about the only thing missing is the Minbari. I guess JMS felt the pilot movie got that one going. But I don't think the episode could handle any one more thing jammed into it.

Poor Jerry Doyle, given the role of Captain Exposition. He struggles through that dialog gamely, but sigh. Michael O'Hare doesn't fare as well. I love Sinclair so much, but man, on this rewatch years later, I have to admit I understood the "wooden" accusation. But be fair, the dialog he was given was pretty lame. Though again, Katsulas and Jurasik make it work. They remind me that it's gonna get good before too long.

Edited 2009-01-25 22:41 (UTC)

I actually started re-watching B5 back in December in an effort to introduce my fiancé to this series, and there is such a remarkable difference in atmosphere between this episode and the pilot. In "The Gathering," it felt like Laurel Takashima was trying to be a very pale imitation of Ivanova, something that I feel that Elizabeth Lochley was doing as well in the early parts of season 5. It's funny, but having such a small change such as Ivanova can add so much energy to the series. It made me realize just how much Londo, G'Kar, Garibaldi, and Delenn carried the pilot and then the rest of the cast started gelling.

I loved this excerpt from the jms notes on the Lurker's Guide:

"When he needed to find his character for a scene, Peter Jurasik mentioned that he would just stand up straight and yell, "MISter GariBALdi!" and he'd be right back in character. Sort of the B5 version of "Shazam!""

That is just completely awesome. It doesn't feel like the actors had to get used to the role again.

I heartily agree with you here. The first time I saw season 1 was after season 4 (when the reruns began on TNT) and I didn't care for Sinclair at all. Even now, I still find myself flinching through some of his scenes early on in the series. It's such a contrasting dynamic to when Sheridan arrives and comes onto the station like a hurricane hitting the Bahamas.

Boxleitner has star quality. He's a presence. Like you said, he hit his first scene boom!

Sinclair started clicking as a character for me later on. I'm looking forward to "And the Sky Full of Stars" (if I'm remembering the name of the Minbari war flashback one right).

I thought Talia's reactions, especially at the end, were a little off. Such a sad story, and even if you agreed with the laws, it obviously wasn't a good or fair outcome for Susan's mother, or Susan.
And I kept wondering (on first viewing) why Talia kept after poor Susan. Once she'd reported to the second in command, all done, let it go, move on!

I was checking the scriptbooks for Sinclair's father's sayings (I liked ruuger's prompt in the other post) and remembered this was all written with Lyta in mind. And during that scene Lyta asks Susan if she's telepathic, and she says no, it's a recessive gene that skips every other generation or so. Fascinating stuff!

That and "Parliament of Dreams" is when Sinclair really began clicking for me as a character, though I had a really hard time understanding any lasting chemistry between him and Catherine Sakai. It actually took the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" for me to really appreciate that relationship and Sinclair as a character.

Darth G'Kar FTW!
Space Gun Teapot!
Commander Ayla: Not Earth's Children!

I feel better now. Anyone else notice how relatively sparse Londo's quarters are, compared to what they become within the space of one season? I think it's deliberate myself...shows how his fortunes rise.

Also, long lived Narn is long lived. If the conflict ended a hundred years ago, and G'Kar *fought* to free Narn, even as a youth, then does this pretty much mean humans are the Mayflies of the B5 universe? It seems so.

Commander Ayla: Not Earth's Children!

*spits out sushi all over keyboard at this one*

This episode reminded me of how initially sympathetic Londo was and how unsympathetic G'Kar was, something that would change as the series progressed.

"Midnight on the Firing Line" discussion [spoilers]

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