"Midnight on the Firing Line" discussion [spoilers]

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 1X01 "Midnight on the Firing Line". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Extra reading:

The article for "Midnight on the Firing Line" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Huh?
No-one in yet?

OK, I'll start:
What struck me most is how impressively/depressingly relevant the rather loud political overtones still are, well over a decade later!
I also remember thinking of B5's San Diego bombing on a certain day in 2001.

Strong start to the series proper IMHO.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I agree. This was the first episode I saw on my 'real' viewing (prior to that it had been an episode here, an episode there, and the expected confusion and apathy). I thought it was terrific. Whenever folks talk about starting people at Season Two, I disagree, strongly. There are some really weak S1 episodes, but MotFL is not one of them.
And I was watching 05-06 and the political implications rung loud and clear to me.

[shapinglight]

What struck me most is how impressively/depressingly relevant the rather loud political overtones still are,

Yes, that struck me too.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I tried to keep track of all the plotlines/plot points that were introduced in this episode:

Santiago/his VP with many chins who is not to be trusted
Ivanova's history with PsiCorps
PsiCorps' history and reputation
the Narns' involement in the Earth-Minbari War
Sinclair's unusual attitude towards the Minbari
Minbari honor
Garibaldi's facility with computers
Ivanova and Talia
Londo's foretold death and G'Kar's involvement in it
Twenty years from now important things will happen
Centauri prescient dreams
the Narns want war, Londo is prepared to oblige
the Minbari take the long view of events
Sinclair is clever, and EarthGov is cautious, and needs to be circumvented

I'm forgetting some, but I am amazed at how much is packed in here.

[madrona.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Babylon 5 is really a very dense show. It's amazing how much you notice once you know what's coming.

[impactbomb.livejournal.com]

I don't really have any spoileriffic content to go here, I just wanted to put it here instead of elsewhere because it involves everything about his performance, so:

I will damn well miss Andreas Katsulas forever, and that is solely because of his portrayal of G'Kar.

I love G'Kar's laugh, his craziness, his anger, his poetry, his humor, I love it so much, and I am always so amazed that all of that is already there from this early on.

It's true of the pilot as well, but it's especially true in this ep because of how much of him there is in it and because of how much that comes through even though the writing (and don't get me wrong, I love that bait and switch in the plot) pretty clearly wants the audience to think the Narns are vengeful and crazy.

I love that he's still a person in spite of that, and while some of that is JMS' doing, those little nuances in JMS' words wouldn't have worked if Katsulas hadn't been so fricking amazing from day one.

There's so much going on in this episode and I'm sure I'll jump in on discussions about that later on, but as far as my reactions to it right now are concerned I just wanted to focus on G'Kar. Because damn, but I miss Andreas Katsulas.

[becky-monster.livejournal.com]

Because damn, but I miss Andreas Katsulas.

Ditto. I was 'fine' watching Lost Tales until they showed the images of the main races. When it came to the Narn, epitomised by G'Kar, I just felt my heart break. Swearing and tears soon followed afterwards.

[becky-monster.livejournal.com]

This episode stands out for me for two main reasons.

One - the whole Londo and his dreams of his death. When I first watched the series (around '94), I thought that it was words - that it wouldn't be followed through... This happened quite a bit to me in the first season (Soul Hunter is another episode that I hit upon this), too many loose ends and that magical 'reset' button being used in other shows had made me wary of such things (yes, I am looking at you Star Trek: TNG!).

I do believe the appropriate phrase is 'oh ye of little faith!';)

It was only on re-watching the series in '04 that it struck me that JMS knew exactly what he was doing and as others have said, sowing the seeds for the series, right from the word 'go'.

Two - Garibaldi's 'second' favourite thing in the universe.

The way that the shot of the station is juxtaposed with Duck Dodgers asking "And you want me to find Planet X, is that it?" was just such a breath of fresh air and one of the (many, many) reasons why I love this show so much.

I adore the Looney Tunes cartoons, so to see them referenced in a TV show is always good but to see it referenced in a Sci-Fi show (remember - Star Trek was pretty much the be all and end all) was just fantastic.

Along with the political aspect (bit of a history buff), it helped to flag up to me that this show was pretty much the complete antithesis of Star Trek (TOS - love, TNG - not so much) and that it was something I should be watching.

[peachtales.livejournal.com]

I didn't see the show when it came out, and with the exception of Day of the Dead have mostly only seen the episodes and movies once. My watching of the series happened on dvd about 4 years ago.
That said, watching this episode again was almost revelatory.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how strong this episode was, right out of the gate.

This is really my first re-watch of any B5, and I'm impressed/surprised to see how much is set up in this episode. The Susan/Talia tension was really there from the start. And watching G'Kar's arrogance regarding the Narn-Centauri conflict -- paradoxically my heart *hurt* for him because I'm watching now with the knowledge that the positions are eventually going to reverse.

[latte-vanilla.livejournal.com]

Considering it was 1994, the Susan/Talia thing was a huge deal.

[latte-vanilla.livejournal.com]

I got fixated on Kosh saying that the Narn and/or Centauri are a dying race. I tend to get fixated on everything Kosh says XD

Was there ever any 'additional info' about the Vorlons precognitive abilities? Or was it just that they knew the races and could predict future based on that? Could he foresee the Centauri 'siding' with the Shadows and being a Vorlon therefore see them doomed? The Narns having lost their telepaths and defenceless against the Shadows? Or so hell bent on destroying the Centauri that it would ruin them?

[drabbit.livejournal.com]

Bear in mind Kosh has factual knowledge of everything that will happen up until Sinclair leaves on Babylon 4. He knows there will be war between the Centauri and the Narn and the Narn will be crushed to a horrific extent, and he knows the Centauri will side with the Shadows. He may be making an assumption there that the Centauri will be destroyed because of it, based on his own ideology.

There's nothing to show long term that he's right, either. Their power may have waned, but in both cases under terrible pounding the race and cultures go on.

[antennapedia.livejournal.com]

G'Kar and Londo carry this episode on the strength of great acting from those two. And there, as in so many other ways, the trend of the series is started in episode one. All kinds of plot threads begin hear: the Narn/Centauri war, the raiders sub-plot that will be spun around mid-season, the Earth presidency and its fallout, the PsiCorp and the Talia-Ivanova storyline. Just about the only thing missing is the Minbari. I guess JMS felt the pilot movie got that one going. But I don't think the episode could handle any one more thing jammed into it.

Poor Jerry Doyle, given the role of Captain Exposition. He struggles through that dialog gamely, but sigh. Michael O'Hare doesn't fare as well. I love Sinclair so much, but man, on this rewatch years later, I have to admit I understood the "wooden" accusation. But be fair, the dialog he was given was pretty lame. Though again, Katsulas and Jurasik make it work. They remind me that it's gonna get good before too long.

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

I heartily agree with you here. The first time I saw season 1 was after season 4 (when the reruns began on TNT) and I didn't care for Sinclair at all. Even now, I still find myself flinching through some of his scenes early on in the series. It's such a contrasting dynamic to when Sheridan arrives and comes onto the station like a hurricane hitting the Bahamas.

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

I actually started re-watching B5 back in December in an effort to introduce my fiancé to this series, and there is such a remarkable difference in atmosphere between this episode and the pilot. In "The Gathering," it felt like Laurel Takashima was trying to be a very pale imitation of Ivanova, something that I feel that Elizabeth Lochley was doing as well in the early parts of season 5. It's funny, but having such a small change such as Ivanova can add so much energy to the series. It made me realize just how much Londo, G'Kar, Garibaldi, and Delenn carried the pilot and then the rest of the cast started gelling.

I loved this excerpt from the jms notes on the Lurker's Guide:

"When he needed to find his character for a scene, Peter Jurasik mentioned that he would just stand up straight and yell, "MISter GariBALdi!" and he'd be right back in character. Sort of the B5 version of "Shazam!""

That is just completely awesome. It doesn't feel like the actors had to get used to the role again.

[madrona.livejournal.com]

Darth G'Kar FTW!
Space Gun Teapot!
Commander Ayla: Not Earth's Children!

I feel better now. Anyone else notice how relatively sparse Londo's quarters are, compared to what they become within the space of one season? I think it's deliberate myself...shows how his fortunes rise.

Also, long lived Narn is long lived. If the conflict ended a hundred years ago, and G'Kar *fought* to free Narn, even as a youth, then does this pretty much mean humans are the Mayflies of the B5 universe? It seems so.

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

Commander Ayla: Not Earth's Children!

*spits out sushi all over keyboard at this one*

[marphilly.livejournal.com]

This episode reminded me of how initially sympathetic Londo was and how unsympathetic G'Kar was, something that would change as the series progressed.

[lazulidragon.livejournal.com]

I'ts always startling to me to see just how...scruffy...the Centauri hairpieces were in S1, and how different some of the costumes look. Especially in the case of poor Vir, looking confused and half-terrified here.

Oh, and Garibaldi sharing his second favorite thing in the universe with Delenn always kills me. I wonder how he talked her into it?

[madrona.livejournal.com]

Well, in the commentary on The Gathering, JMS mentions that they were never supposed to be such big hairpieces, it's just that Peter Jurasik was playing a joke on JMS and came in before they got his trimmed down, saying, "I like it just like this!" JMS went with it.

However, the Centauri in question are sort of their planet's rejects, so a little bit of inattentiveness re: personal grooming is in keeping with that, I think. It's when Londo gets sleek that he becomes so scary.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I so love this opener. As has been said, so many important plot arcs are introduced here, in addition to three new characters (Ivanova, Talia and Vir), and yet it doesn't feel overcrowded at all.

Observations upon rewatching: I had forgotten JMS even smuggled in a brief remark about Santiago's Vice President (as a reason not to vote for him). All the bits about Earth elections is neatly done. The first time I watched, I thought it was just to explain the Senator's order to Sinclair, but in retrospect it's of course part of the build up to the season finale and beyond.

I had a friend who had followed the bad advice of starting with s2 and who watched s1 only later, after she had seen the other seasons, and who felt disturbed and angry to see "G'Kar in the wrong, almost like a baddie" - she wanted the G'Kar of later seasons. Whereas to me the first season, as epitomized in this episode, is why JMS was so great with his character arcs for Londo and G'Kar. If G'Kar had started out as being the way she wanted, there would have been nearly no growth. Instead, you have the backstory - the Centauri occupation of a hundred years, liberation from slavery - introduced from the start, but you also see G'Kar arrogant as hell, bent on vengeance, enjoying every chance he has to humiliate Londo and looking forward to wiping out the Centauri. You see G'Kar being perfectly fine with sneak attacks on civilian planets and ensuing occupations, provided the Narn are the ones carrying them out. (The parallel between this and what happens in Coming of Shadows in s2 is obvious.) This is both why G'Kar has the possibility of growth (and why it's all themore impressive when he takes it) and, I think, a big reason why he eventually is able to forgive Londo. Because he understands him all too well. (As for the audience, I maintain that if you haven't seen where Lodno is coming from in season 1, then you will react completely differently in season 2.)

And Londo! There is so much important character stuff in this episode. The dream, of course, but more importantly his frustration about the fact his goverment isn't willing to do anything about the Narn attack and is prepared to sacrifice everyone on Ragesh III as lost. The sense of humiliation and helplessness boiling over in violence. The way this is all intensely personal for him. In one of the few continuity glitches for Londo, we never hear from his nephew Karn again (which is why my fanon is poor Karn committed suicide after being called back to Centauri Prime because of his forced speech), but I think it's important, character wise, that Londo is still concerned for him after the speech and the public humiliation, because as we later learn this isn't typical the Centauri, who put saving face first. Vir's uncle would have disowned his nephew at once.

Speaking of Vir, this is both where he gets introduced and where his relationship with Londo starts, which is going to become one of the most important of the show. At this point, they simply start off as yelling ambassador and bumbling assistant, but note Vir already keeps switching between addressing him as "Ambassador" and "Londo", and for the first time is asked to keep one of Londo's secrets, and does.

The Susan/Talia tension set up is great, and I think the only time Andrea Thompson didn't convince me as Talia was when she ran into Londo - that was a bit too theatrical. But she's great in her scenes with Garibaldi and Ivanova both.

[andraste]

In one of the few continuity glitches for Londo, we never hear from his nephew Karn again (which is why my fanon is poor Karn committed suicide after being called back to Centauri Prime because of his forced speech)

That makes a disturbing amount of sense. Otherwise, you'd expect Londo to be advancing his career later on when he goes up in the world.

Also, not only do we never hear from Karn again, but his existence implies that Londo has a brother we never hear a single thing about. Londo is the head of the family, so either his sibling is younger or he died young.

Either way, I suspect he's dead by this point given his conspicuous absence in this episode. If he was alive, you'd expect Londo to mention him.

Observations, Part II

[selenak.livejournal.com]

What strikes me that the s1 set up is in several ways the reverse of the s2 set up, as very visible in this episode: here, Ivanova is the newbie in the core command staff, Garibaldi is the one who is close to the commander and knows him from the old days. Whereas Ivanova is the one who knows Sheridan, Sheridan himself is the newbie, and Garibaldi even at the best of times was never that close to Sheridan. (This, btw, is why Garibaldi's s4 storyline doesn't have quite the intended impact for me - I mean, it's horrible for Garibaldi in any case, but JMS clearly went for a "best friend forced to betray best friend" scenario, and Sheridan and Garibaldi simply weren't. With Sinclair, the same scenes would have been even more powerful.)

Also, Sinclair at this point clearly doesn't like and distrusts G'Kar (no kidding, since G'Kar had tried to hand him over to the Vorlons and in this story is involved in an attack and some piracy), and sympathizes with Londo. While Sheridan's very first encounter with Londo painted Londo as untrustworthy and powerhungry (he never got to meet first season Londo), whereas to him G'Kar always comes across as well-meaning, if at times frustrating. (He's not aquainted with "hooray for sneak attacks, as long as they're ours" G'Kar, either.)

Garibaldi stopping Londo from going after G'Kar with a gun finds its echo in Sheridan stopping G'Kar from going after Londo, and so forth.

Garibaldi's fondness for cartoons is by and large an endearing character trait, but I can understand why Jerry Doyle felt it was shameless product placing by the WB...

Re: Observations, Part II

[dqbunny.livejournal.com]

This, btw, is why Garibaldi's s4 storyline doesn't have quite the intended impact for me - I mean, it's horrible for Garibaldi in any case, but JMS clearly went for a "best friend forced to betray best friend" scenario, and Sheridan and Garibaldi simply weren't. With Sinclair, the same scenes would have been even more powerful.

Maybe that was part of the original plan was to have Garibaldi betray Sinclair, but when the story changed, so did the situation. I agree with you here - to me, it just doesn't make sense that Garibaldi is targeted the way he is. It would make more since for Ivanova to have been captured by Bester and implanted with the orders. Just think of the coup that would have given Bester. Granted, it would keep her away from developing the relationship with Marcus, but the ramifications of those actions would have been even more devastating on Sheridan, Garibaldi, etc. than what we were presented with. To me, it just felt like "dogpile on Garibaldi" from the beginning of season 4 to the end of the series.

[shapinglight]

This was the first B5 episode I ever saw - not because I missed The Gathering but because Channel 4, in their wisdom, chose not to show it first. I can't now remember how many episodes of season 1 I'd seen before I saw The Gathering, though I do remember that when I finally did get to see, I was blown away by how much had been set up in it (principally the Sinclair/Minbari stuff) that had had me scratching my head while watching the following episodes (which I saw before the pilot).

So, on viewing MotFL again for the first time in years, I guess it's a tribute to how gripping B5 is right from the start that I kept on with it, because the episode doesn't make any concessions. It just throws you right in there.

Yes, Ivanova and Talia (and Dr Franklin in the next episode)are new characters, but the others already know each other and I found myself dropped right into the middle of things knowing nothing about them. I hadn't been introduced. So, Sinclair is incredibly hostile towards G'Kar, for reasons that were at the time unknown to me - as was the history between the Centauri and the Narn, so Londo and G'kar's enmity was also inexplicable. (And who was this Dr Kyle that Dr Franklin told Sinclair he'd met on Io in Soul Hunter I had no idea?

Speaking of whom, I suppose if Dr Kyle became the President's personal physician, he must have died too during the assassination?)

Anyway, despite being totally bewildered, way back then (1994?), there was enough in this first episode to draw me in and keep me coming back, even though I remained in the dark about a lot of things until I saw The Gathering.

For a start, there's Londo and G'kar. So much about their interactions here and about Londo's with Vir adds richness to their various cultures. Weirdly, for me with Londo, it was the fact that he was so concerned about his nephew that drew me in, because it sets up so well and so economically the Centauri preoccupation with the extended family. Have to admit that on my first watch, I just presumed the Narn were going to be the villains. Brash, arrogant, look like lizards therefore treacherous and bound to be the bad guys. Yet even in this episode, there are hints that all is not quite what it seems.

I'm also so impressed by how much is set up here that turn out to mean so much later in the series, which is also true in Soul Hunter, such as Londo's dream of fighting to the death with G'kar, and Earth's political troubles. Also, I know it's hindsight talking, but it looks to me like Talia had set her sights on Ivanova right from the start, which reminds me all over again how innovative B5 was, not just for its own time, but still, in suggesting that same sex relationships are no longer thought of as 'difficult' or unusual.

And I don't think Sinclair's wooden.

[ruuger]

Speaking of whom, I suppose if Dr Kyle became the President's personal physician, he must have died too during the assassination?)

Wasn't the guy who was hiding on B5 in S2 the president's physician? I have a vague recollection that it was mentioned that Kyle was the head of the xenobiology whatever, and Franklin replaced him (or joined him?) when he left B5 at the end of S5.

[andraste]

A while ago, I wrote a full review of this episode here.

Every time I watch this episode, I am surprised all over again that the Narn on the Raider ship didn't destroy those data crystals or throw them out an airlock as soon as it became clear that the ship was going to be captured. I can only imagine what the Narn regime did with him when he got home.

Great comment!

[selvatica.livejournal.com]

My favourite line in this episode is said by Ivanova, when Talia is trying to check in with her.
She says (to dismiss the unwelcome introduction) "Then you'll excuse me, but I'm in the middle of 15 things, all of them annoying"

[krisserci5.livejournal.com]

As much as I loved Sheridan, I missed Sinclair. . . .

Even being a fighter pilot and on the "Line" Sinclair states about the Mimbari, "Their too honorable"

I love the foreshadowing. . .

Upon each review of the series, I am always fascinated by all the foreshadowing that was handed out, only we didn't know on that first run through. . .I pick up new details each run through. Fresh viewing with the worry of what's gonna happen.

Did I mention, I love the foreshadowing. . . *g*

Sinclair and Garibaldi were great comrades . . . .I always thought that Garibadi was so alone after that. . . .

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Just found this community; glad I can get in early!

Random observations, in no particular order:

- This episode confused the hell out of me when I first saw it – because the TV network that was showing B5 had decided, in their infinite wisdom, to follow up ‘The Gathering’ with ‘Soul Hunter’, and didn’t show ‘Midnight on the Firing Line’ until the week after ‘Chrysalis’. …yeah.

- Do we ever see those blue H-shaped Narn ships again? Every other time Narn warships are shown, they’re the red-black triangular ones.

- I’ve always liked the first season theme music best.

- I’m always really amused about the detail about how the Centauri lied about practically everything when they made contact with Earth…

- Everyone’s TV screens seem to be in really awkward positions – Sinclair’s is behind him, over his shoulder, Londo’s is on a table facing away from all the seats. For that matter, the screen in the council chamber doesn’t seem to be easily viewed from anyone’s seat.
And, man, don't the old TV screens look so much more dated than everything else?

- G’kar: “The wheel turns, does it not?” And the wheel will keep turning; it’s all downhill for the Narn from here.

- The Centauri prophetic dreams bother me somewhat; Londo seems to be the only one who’s foreseen his death. You’d think it’d come up occasionally for other Centauri – was Refa so determined to crush the Narn as pre-emptive revenge for his death at their hands?

- I assume there’s a limbo somewhere where relatives of main characters who get mentioned once and never seen again go. Londo’s nephew can hang out there with Sheridan’s sister and DS9’s General Martok’s son…

- Throwaway line, but – the Narn have only just managed to restore some forests to their homeworld? The Centauri don’t mess around when they conquer places, do they? A good thing the Shadows didn’t come out of hiding a few decades earlier, and form an alliance with a still expansionistic Centauri Republic…
And if Narn is still struggling to recover, annexing agricultural colonies looks less like treachery, and more desperation.

- ‘Refugee export service’? That’s a… rather peculiar phrasing. Who’s seeking refuge, anyway?

- Continuity oddity – Ragesh 3 was Narn before the Centauri invasion? I’m fairly sure this is the only reference anywhere to the Narn having spaceflight or colonies before the Centauri invasion. Granted, G’kar could be making things up, but Delenn does recognise the claim.

- Wondering if it would have been better to leave the non-aligned worlds out of the episode entirely; they don’t get introduced, they don’t get any lines, the Drazi appears to be cross-eyed, and there only seem to be eight of them… including Vir. I guess they hadn’t finished designing or producing the makeup for the full league?

- The dove-tailing of the raiders and Ragesh 3 plots seems a little contrived… Why would a weapons specialist be monitoring military transmissions in another star system?

- Talia: “I don’t feel like a victim.” Awww. *sad*

- I love the delicate way Delenn tries to eat a piece of popcorn.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

> The Centauri prophetic dreams bother me somewhat; Londo seems to be the
> only one who’s foreseen his death. You’d think it’d come up occasionally
> for other Centauri – was Refa so determined to crush the Narn as
> pre-emptive revenge for his death at their hands?

I think it may be that not everyone pays as much attention to it as Londo does. Refa may well think he is above that kind of thing, for instance. It's one of the things that makes Londo a tragic character, that he is much more sensitive and aware than he admits, even to himself.

> Throwaway line, but – the Narn have only just managed to restore some
> forests to their homeworld? The Centauri don’t mess around when they
> conquer places, do they?

We do get to see that repeated later on, in case anyone was in any doubt...

> I love the delicate way Delenn tries to eat a piece of popcorn.

Yes, me too :-)
And the cautious approach she takes to the film!

[melligator.livejournal.com]

Going to start catching up with the rewatch today - going on the treadmill and getting the first ep out of the way. Will be back to read all comments later - woo!

*realises she only has spoilery B5 icons*

[melligator.livejournal.com]

Like others, I was newly impressed with just how much is crammed into this episode, and yet it doesn't seem like a primer or rushed or anything.

I thought it was interesting that our first view of Kosh is his encounter suit, without him in it, sort of grotesquely distorted right off the bat. It's kind of a clever intro to Kosh, right away you don't really know what to make of him.

The way Talia just walks on into the command centre always bothered me. Would she really have that much access?

Whoever costumed this show must have had a lot of fun. Just sayin'. :D

The direction is great, the camera is always where it needs to be and we're never left behind - and that's saying a lot for an episode that is so rich and fast moving.

I'll get this out of the way - I really don't like O'Hare. The Sinclair character is so complex and there's so much to be done with him, but O'Hare drives me crazy enough that any of his scenes, I'm just wishing them by all the time. He mars the first season for me, but I think it is a testament to how good it is, that the serious issues I have with him are tolerable. Katsulas, with his full facial prosthetic, emotes a hundred times more than O'Hare. I think he's an awful actor. :(

The closing scene with Garibaldi and Delenn is wonderful. They really are an odd couple, Doyle owns Garibaldi already, and Furlan already has Delenn nailed down. You can really tell who the acting vets are - their characters are pretty much everything they will be already, as opposed to some of the younger actors who settled into their characters a little more slowly. I don't mean there's no growth, just that some of the actors have the attitudes and mannerisms and tones of their characters so well developed, so early.