"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 2X14, "There All the Honor Lies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan gets into trouble when he kills a Minbari in self-defense.

Extra reading:
The article for "There All the Honor Lies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

this very episode has a main plot that is directly stolen definitely inspired from Star Trek

And that's my main problem with the A plot here; it feels so generic sci-fi tv that it could have been in any series, and it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know. If you're going to borrow Star Trek tropes, try to subvert them or something, please!

The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know.

Possibly, with Ira Behr, Ron Moore et al. telling him "You know, we really can't use the Vulcans don't lie line anymore and we already did the Worf-gets-framed episode this season, so...

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

That, and due to the rewatch it's not that long since we watched Legacies where Delenn forces Neroon to go against his convictions and with her ideas not because she is able to convince him or even tries to, but simply by pulling rank on him. "I'm satai, you're just a lowly warrior, so obey!" is really not the way to show you're working for the good of everyone, and turnaround on Neroon's part felt earned. Whereas Lennier's clan mate here is just being a racist jerk.

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

Quite, and you wouldn't understand why Vir bothers to try and save Londo at all. It occurs to me that we get three episodes in which JMS highlights Londo's capacity for friendship - Acts of Sacrifice, this one, and Knives - before the one that showcases Londo's dark side (and how) in The Long, Twilight Struggle, which shows you how the complexity of the character is maintained. (Just imagine the very different emotional effect if we'd gone straight from Coming of Shadows to The Long Twilight Struggle.

But to go back to Vir, even aside from his relationship with Londo, this is so important for how he deals with his own growing guilt about the Narn situation, because we see how keeping Londo's secrets burdens him here; later this season we'll get the terrific scene with him and G'Kar where Vir attempts to apologize, and afterwards in s3 he'll take action to actively save Narns. So this glimpse at Vir's dilemma needs to be...