b5_revisited | "There All the Honor Lies" discussion

Peter David, it bears repeating is one of those writers who know how to use an ensemble instead of just two or three characters. As with Soul Mates, we get three plots here (or four if you count Sheridan and Kosh as a seperate one) which occasionally intersect, and all of them are entertaining to watch. (Though I have my preferences, which will suprise no one when I get to them.)

To get the nitpick out of the way first: "They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one. Not because DS9 happens to be a fabulous show, which it is, but because this very episode has a main plot that is ~~directly stolen~~ definitely inspired from Star Trek, that tried-and-true formula of the Captain/First Officer/Other Beloved Member of Crew who gets framed and tried for a crime he/she didn't commit. TOS did, all subsequent Trek shows did it, but let me tell you, none of the subsequent Trek shows ~~stole~~ paid homage so directly as to actually use the "~~Vulcans~~ Minbari don't lie" line.

Back to the episode. Predictable as the Sheridan-gets-framed plot was, I did enjoy it, and not just because we briefly get to see Julie Caitlin Brown again. (Why oh why couldn't she stay as Na'Toth? That was a rethorical question.) It's good continuity in terms of using Sheridan's backstory and the Minbari resentment again, and it shows that for Sheridan at this stage despite his attraction to Delenn, those issues aren't settled, either; he's awfully quick at first to believe Delenn is involved in the frame job. The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Cheap shot aside, the merchandising plot is worth it for the "so you feel yourself symbolically cas---t in a bad light" quip and the teddy bear alone.

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo. Their subplot has the least space and yet manages to pack a lot of punch and do some crucial things regarding both Vir's character and their relationship. It shows Vir's mixed feelings - on the one hand, he suffers under keeping Londo's secrets and the aiding and abetting that goes with this, on the other, he doesn't want to return home because, and this is important to understand what Vir's loyalty to Londo originally was based on, Londo is the first person who actually wants him around, who notices Vir as a person. We see the similarities between them - both originally got their jobs as a joke, out of disregard from others - as well as the differences; Vir, as Londo says much later, did not get cynical as a result. We also see that the relationship goes both ways by now and isn't one sided. (And note how the tone is shifting towards more equality; Vir's "what you want, what they want, how about what I want?" outburst would have been unthinkable for first season Vir.) Londo tries to help not just with the immediate problem (the threat to Vir's job) but the underlying one (disrespect towards Vir from his family and on Centauri Prime). Mind you, I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle (with descriptions like "swallowed up in silence" and Vir's later "and to find someone who could actually love someone like me" hinting at complete emotional neglect) doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

"They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one.

I have never had much time for the "who stole what from whom debate", especially as
a) I do not have a problem with appreciating both shows (same as you, it seems); I was a Trekkie before I ever knew about B5.
b) Stories in related genres, and especially in the same medium, are bound to a certain extent by the genre itself, and they are written by people who know what went before, and oftn what is going on concurrently; consequently, there will always be overlaps, both deliberate and accidental
c) DS9 and B5 went out pretty much at the same time, so they were predestined for all kind of cross-fertilization of this kind, probably going *both ways*.

But actually, until you made that comment (and I don't think we disagree much there) I had forgotten about the whole thing, or rather, filed it under "irrelevant" in the back of my brain. So when i saw the episode a few days ago, the only thing the writeres seemsed to take pot-shopts at was the concept of merchandizing. I am not sure how much was already goping on at the time, or whether the things in the shop were all real, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were! I know the bear was a private joke.

Yes and that line about the Londo doll was divine...

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo.

Yes, but I'm biased :-)

I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle ... doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

Absolutely: I love both my space station shows, and to this day refuse to choose between them.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

Welllll, that's not quite how I'd put it. Because Londo also succeeds, and I don't mean in the bitterly ironic sense Elric did. In this case, he may not be able to patch up Vir's relationship with his family, but because he shows Vir that he, Londo, genuinenly cares for Vir, Vir is able to maintain his role as Londo's conscience. More than that: by s5, we get that extraordinary scene from The very long night of Londo Mollari where in Londo's mind, Vir actually is his reason to continue living. (Mind!Vir's plea to turn around is the one Londo finally listens to, after Vir says in reply to Londo's "but wouldn't it be better if I died now?" "I would miss you".) Their friendship survives, and not least due to it Vir is one day in a position to become Emperor and restore Londo's beloved Centauri Prime.

Fair enough, but much of this is down more to Londos feeling/intention than his actions. He means well and he cares, politically and personally, but the positive outcomes we see are not usually the result of his actions themselves (though I agree that his intentions do have some effect).
For instance, even though Londo's support means that Vir will eventually be emperor and in a position to reatore Centauri Prime, there might have been no need for restoration had it not been for Londo's actions in the first place.
To me these look more like a case of redemption, where destiny/God/the Universe acknowledges the general goodness of the characters (more to Vir's than Londo's, who is less "innocent" in his ways).

Having said that, though, in this episode Londo's reference to Lennier's earlier lie does have immediate and important positive effects, so even Londo is capable of getting it right :-)

this very episode has a main plot that is ~~directly stolen~~ definitely inspired from Star Trek

And that's my main problem with the A plot here; it feels so generic sci-fi tv that it could have been in any series, and it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know. If you're going to borrow Star Trek tropes, try to subvert them or something, please!

The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know.

Possibly, with Ira Behr, Ron Moore et al. telling him "You know, we really can't use the Vulcans don't lie line anymore and we already did the Worf-gets-framed episode this season, so...

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

That, and due to the rewatch it's not that long since we watched Legacies where Delenn forces Neroon to go against his convictions and with her ideas not because she is able to convince him or even tries to, but simply by pulling rank on him. "I'm satai, you're just a lowly warrior, so obey!" is really not the way to show you're working for the good of everyone, and turnaround on Neroon's part felt earned. Whereas Lennier's clan mate here is just being a racist jerk.

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

Quite, and you wouldn't understand why Vir bothers to try and save Londo at all. It occurs to me that we get three episodes in which JMS highlights Londo's capacity for friendship - Acts of Sacrifice, this one, and Knives - before the one that showcases Londo's dark side (and how) in The Long, Twilight Struggle, which shows you how the complexity of the character is maintained. (Just imagine the very different emotional effect if we'd gone straight from Coming of Shadows to The Long Twilight Struggle.

But to go back to Vir, even aside from his relationship with Londo, this is so important for how he deals with his own growing guilt about the Narn situation, because we see how keeping Londo's secrets burdens him here; later this season we'll get the terrific scene with him and G'Kar where Vir attempts to apologize, and afterwards in s3 he'll take action to actively save Narns. So this glimpse at Vir's dilemma needs to be...

I like Sheridan's "bone on his head" line even though it shocked me when I rewatched the series: JMS doesn't pretend only evil characters can harbour that kind of prejudice.

The way the aftermath of the Earth/Minbari war lingers for the good characters is something I found really striking on this rewatch; in the first season with Sinclair's "there was a time when I just wanted to kill every Minbari I saw" line and now here with Sheridan. It makes psychological sense for both of them, and of course they both get over it in different ways, but as you say, mostly only evil or at least ambiguous characters are shown to have prejudices.

Irrelevant point:
I'm using ancient British VHS, and was pleased to find that Acts of Sacrifice
/ Hunter, Prey and Knives / Shadow of Z'd were in the correct order (less fast forwarding/ searching around on tapes!).
The I noticed that, this and next week's are the other way round.
How odd... :-)

I am killjoy and hate the teddy bear/shop plotline. It seemed to 4th wall breaking (with the stabs at Star Trek). I was glad when they stopped making so many references to other shows. Be who you are; stop worrying about everybody else.

I wish I understood what Kosh was doing with the music. It was a lovely scene, but Kosh's motives are so opaque and so focused on his goal that I wish I understood what this served.

To be honest, I'm still not sure what it was we were meant to be seeing. Holograms?

I wish I understood what this served.

Agreed. In retrospect, a lot of Kosh's actions make sense, but not this one. Unless he just wanted to cheer Sheridan up. Vorlons aren't the hugging type.

I think it was a projection from Kosh's brain, maybe? That was my guess.

Unless he just wanted to cheer Sheridan up.

I feel like I keep harping on this poor episode with this same charge, but it has the ring to me of "generic cryptic character does something cryptic" where Kosh is the Magical Vorlon.

I think it was a projection from Kosh's brain, maybe? That was my guess.

For which he demands payment in the form of uniform doodads?

...it has the ring to me of "generic cryptic character does something cryptic" where Kosh is the Magical Vorlon.

Yes, that puts it nicely.

For which he demands payment in the form of uniform doodads?

He gave up his rank! I am willing to give the episode credit for cool foreshadowing on that bit.

I TOTALLY DIDN'T SPOT THAT! *claps*

I like this episode overall, on account of how I'm a sucker for Minbari shenanigans (and I would quite like a story where Lennier and Garibaldi FIGHT CRIME), but OMG THE SHOP SUBPLOT. Cheap digs at DS9 aside, I keep thinking, "Man, in another year they'll really be wanting that extra revenue."

I did feel for Vir in this episode - now that Londo's star is 'rising' *cough* heading somewhere darker *cough*, Vir is considered an embarrassment that a now-important Londo shouldn't be burdened with. :(

Sheridan is probably feeling like Luke Skywalker being taught by Yoda (Kosh). LOL. I did like the scene where Sheridan ends up hearing the Gregorian chanting. ^_^ Beauty where you least find it and all that.

The final scene with the spaced teddy - bwahaha. Poor Teddy. I think I read somewhere that the bear was actually given to JMS, and so he thought up an appropriate revenge. I could be wrong, though. :-p

Teddy:

yes, I read that too.
I think it is somewhere on the Lurker's Guide

I sort of feel the merchandising plot had more bite back before there was tons of B5 crap available for sale in real life… not to mention before a series of increasingly pathetic attempts to create spin-offs. Babylon 5 might be ‘about something’, but can the same be said for Legend of the Rangers? And from an in-universe point of view, shouldn’t independent merchants have long since filled the demand for B5 souvenirs?

On the plus side, it does have the ‘Cast- in a bad light’ line, so that’s alright.

Actual plot: It’s a bit thin at times – Sheridan seems a bit too involved in the investigation of his own actions, and Julie Brown’s character seems to disappear for most of the episode. Still, some interesting bits.

Interesting that Earth isn’t willing to exert any real influence to keep Sheridan in command; no doubt while the new regime doesn’t see Sheridan as an active threat, they’re still not above taking an opportunity to see him replaced with someone they know is totally loyal to them.

On Kosh – I’ve never actually minded “Grey 17 is Missing” that much, and that’s mainly because I like the idea that behind all the politics and battles and important people, the station’s also full of weird little secrets that 99% of the station population are completely oblivious to. So I liked the weird Kosh bit here too.

A random thought – Kosh seems to know his way around Down Below. Maybe he’s not that uncommon a sight down there, and that’s why Deuce back in “Grail” thought he could convince people the Vorlons were working with a small-time lurker gang...

What I want to know is how Kosh was able to find out about the Gregorian chant without getting out of his encounter suit. Vorlon telepathy? On that note, I hope he bothered to show this place to Lyta as well later; she could use some cheering up by perfect moments of beauty even more than Sheridan.

Re: Earth and Sheridan - I think what's his name from last episode who was after the doctor probably reported Sheridan was acting a bit fishy there. Plus you know, I wonder how much the generals were able to keep secret from Clark & Co. anyway given that Clark did have large parts of Psi Corps at his side.

Catching up, and not much to add. The Trek comparisons don't bother me; probably because I first watched B5 ages after both were off the air. It's just not that obvious or bothersome to me.

The shop had some cool ship models, I totally would have bought the bear, and I want to see the Halloween party where everyone comes as 'an alien'.

The 'beauty in the dark' sequence I always thought was foreshadowing for the Lorien sequences on Z'ha'dum. Sheridan has to give up his idea of what's important (symbolized here by his rank) in order to receive a gift; of beauty, of life. It's the same scene, to me. Kosh is asking him 'who are you?' We go back and forth with all the characters discovering what is important; who they are, and what they want. The 'Minbari don't lie' storyline is part of this exploration.

It also echoes the singing of the pak'ma'ra, doesn't it? The idea that beauty comes from the dark, from the least of us, from places we never expect it to.

Hm, thinking of this as a parallel to the Lorien scenes hadn't occured to me. (Possibly because I tend to avoid the Lorien scenes if I possibly can and wish this particular plot had been achieved via the bit of Kosh still in Sheridan...) But I can sort of see what you mean.

The singing of the Pak'mara: oh yes, you're right!

The Lorien scenes. Sigh. Not the best moments but important concepts nonetheless. I liked them much more the second, and even more the third, time through. It will be interesting to see how they play out this time.

Does anyone think that Kosh has a piece of himself in Sheridan at this point? They've made mental contact now (All Alone in the Night), and I always wondered if Kosh was learning about Sheridan partly from the inside out.

My main problem with Lorien is that the very premise of Lorien counteracts the very premise of THE ideological point that ends the Shadow War: to wit, thanks, parents, we're done now, leave. Growing up by refusing to fight your parents' wars anymore and telling them to get the hell out of this galaxy while simultanously getting a Big Daddy to make it all better? There is, shall we say, a slight conflict of ideas here.

Re: Kosh and Sheridan - I always thought the piece of himself came during their telepathic contact just before Kosh's death, but otoh it's absolutely possible Kosh already deposed something earlier, to find out more about Sheridan. Or perhaps one of the points of the "moment of perfect beauty" experience was that in such a state of calmness and appreciation, Kosh can get more of a mental impression of Sheridan, i.e. he does this intermittendly but not on an ongoing basis all the time? After all, Sheridan will surprise him later.

Kosh and Sheridan: I was speaking of intermittent contact. The actual splitting off a piece of himself did come in Interludes ('Remember' I always think to myself, all Spock-like), but I like the idea of Kosh dipping into each ambassador occasionally to figure them out/nudge them along or perhaps even just voyeuristically.

That aspect of Lorien doesn't bother me; we're the teenagers now, being given that last little push out of the nest. Lorien helps set it up, like a good parent, but then stands back and lets us make the final decision. And after all, he's the Shadows and Vorlons' parent too. It felt more like a family meeting than an intervention.
I just thought it went on way...too...long. And I hated the 'fingers of mist' holding Sheridan in mid-air. Like I said, I was much more philosophically inclined the second time through (older at least, if not wiser) and liked it more.

Very insightful (with excellent taste in icons too).

What's the origin of the song that the played for the 'beauty in the dark' sequence? I really love it.

It's Gregorian chant from the Latin Christmas Mass; the words and translation are on the episode page in the Lurker's Guide (link in main post above)

Well, I didn't watch B5 back in the day... and I never watched any ST aside from TOS back in the 60s when I was in single digits in age so the merch dig doesn't actually come off as a dig to any other show to me. It actually, in the present day would probably remind more people of Lucas and the SW franchise.

The musical thing reminded me of a quote someone made in another show last week (can't remmeber which) about one of those perfect moments in time when everything stops and one lives entirely in that single moment... Honestly, I think Kosh showed him that. And made him pay for it... with something that he made sure to tell the collector was worthless to him, but he protested way too much. Nothing is free in the universe. Ever.

"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

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