b5_revisited | "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" discussion

The Nightwatch remnants aren't any more interesting than the other Crazy Assassins this show occasionally comes up with, but all the good character stuff for our regulars makes this an episode I love nonetheless.

Firstly and most obviously, I adore the Londo-Refa scene. It's a complete turnaraound from their dynamic in the second season with Londo as the nervous outsider and Refa as the confident insider of court politics, it showcases Londo's smarts and ruthlessness, and also the difference between them in what mostly matters to them respectively. Moreover, it shows that no matter what he says as the ambassador to Sheridan, Delenn & Co., Londo is not enamoured by the multi-expansion politics at all and very aware to where it can lead ("only the heir to the kingdom of idiots" is such a great Londonian phrase); it's only something he'd talk to to other Centauri, though. "And because I have poisoned your drink" probably should not have made me as happy as it does, given it'll lead to some painful experiences for Vir later on, but there it is.

I also love the scene between Londo and Delenn and as always with there were more of them. It's scenes like these that lead to the Delenn in Londo's mind in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, an experience that, now that I think of it, is very much the ceremony Delenn now invites him in vain to.

Of the various confessions, Lennier's makes me sigh (in a "oh, Lennier" fashion, because of course he's kidding himself about that whole purer, higher love thing - he's really Lancelot if you use the Arthurian mythology comparisons offered a few episodes later this season), and I find Ivanova's the most touching. (I also remember that after the first broadcast, there were some viewers who were surprised and only then clued in to the nature of the Susan/Talia relationship.)

I wonder, though: what would Delenn have said, and to whom? (Because while people confess to her, we do not hear her confessing.)

Lastly, on a shallow level: I'm okay with the black uniforms, but I really like the blue Earthforce ones better.

(I also remember that after the first broadcast, there were some viewers who were surprised and only then clued in to the nature of the Susan/Talia relationship.)

I was one of them. Of course, I was only about twelve when I first saw Divided Loyalties, and remain bad at picking up romantic subtext to this day.

"And because I have poisoned your drink" is a great moment.

I was already in my 20s, so I had already realized, but I was surprised Susan said it out loud, and that it was brought up again at all. I had assumed with poor Talia, it was a case of out of sight, out of mind since she had been written off the show.

I think we must be the same age. Funny, I think it's because I was 12 at the time that I picked up on Susan/Talia first time around - my understanding of adult relationships was still so blurry that two women as lovers seemed as logical as anything else grown-ups did.

(Not that I've changed my mind on that, of course, but I'm now aware most TV shows wouldn't be quite as blase about it...)

Londo makes murderous political intrigue look like such fun, doesn't he?

I would give a great deal to be able to use "And because I have poisoned your drink" in conversation one day. Actual poison optional.

I wonder, though: what would Delenn have said, and to whom? (Because while people confess to her, we do not hear her confessing.)

A question I've been circling around for months, with no satisfying answer.

Am I too Centauri centric in speculating that this may have been one reason why she wanted Londo around for the ceremony? I mean, whom better confessing starting a brutal war to? :) (BTW, in the novelization for In the Beginning, Peter David postulates that the reason why our narrator, old Londo, knows all this about Delenn before and during the Earth/Minbari War, which she still hasn't told Sheridan, is because they talked about it during her imprisonment on Centauri Prime before Sheridan arrives.)

No, that is exactly my thinking as well.

(BTW, in the novelization for In the Beginning, Peter David postulates that the reason why our narrator, old Londo, knows all this about Delenn before and during the Earth/Minbari War, which she still hasn't told Sheridan, is because they talked about it during her imprisonment on Centauri Prime before Sheridan arrives.)

I really must get ahold of the novelisation. Despite my violent allergy to Peter David's other B5 books, it sounds like one worth having.

I've seen this episode maybe ... three or four times? Which is a bit worrying, since I only watched B5 for the first time last year. It's an inevitable let-down after "Severed Dreams", and there are a lot of scenes I skip these days. (*cough*Harlan Ellison-voiced computer*cough*)

I love it, though, for the first really brilliant Marcus scene of the series, and for the total disconnect between Lennier's idea of his love for Delenn, and the actual reality. (And the similar disconnect with Delenn's version of the Minbari war -- although, taking it on face value, it says a lot about Minbari notions of conformity and leadership.)

Bit of a weak point in this run of episodes – one wonders if it might have been better if there had been no attempt at an action plot whatsoever, and it had just been pure denouement for the last few episodes. As it is… eh, the Nightwatch plots always had problems when it came to subtlety, and while I understand what JMS was going for, it feels a bit obvious – and faintly medieval as a storytelling technique – to have the ‘true face’ of the Nightwatch be actually physically uglier than the clean cut officers seen in previous episodes.

Londo once again manages to overshadow the entire rest of the episode with only a few scenes. Of course, one of those scenes is Londo explaining that the Centauri are far more entertaining than the Minbari, so there’s a bit of meta-commenting there *grin*.

One aspect that bugs me a little is the Marcus scenes – Delenn comes across as extremely pushy. Now, granted, a big part of the ritual does seem to be pushing people out of their comfort zones and forcing them to admit uncomfortable secrets, but I don’t have the sense that Delenn knows Marcus well enough to justify her refusing to let the issue of his non-participation drop. I don’t know – on rewatching, it feels to me like Delenn and Marcus are treated as if they’ve known each other a lot longer than they actually have. It’s a little awkwardly handled.

It’s funny, but while I’m not a big fan of Sheridan/Delenn, but when I rewatch the show, I end up finding myself supporting them just to spite Lennier. I mean, alright, you’ve got a crush on your mentor – who hasn’t? But a ‘perfect, pure love’? I think I hurt myself rolling my eyes enough to take in that statement.

Ergh, the AI subplot. I had vague memories of this plot, but I couldn’t remember what episode it was in or find any mention online to it, so I ended up assuming it was actually from a different show and I’d misremembered. Anyway it’s… it’s not very good, is it? I mean, it could theoretically be funny, but the execution is just the same punchline over and over again until it just fizzles out unresolved. And outside of this ‘story’, AI technology doesn’t seem to exist in the setting, so the setup feels very contrived.

I like to imagine there’s some ISN propagandist on Earth working out how to spin things when the station goes back on the air. He gets a tip off from an unammed source that B5’s command crew have ditched their Earthforce uniforms for all-black ones of alien design… he thinks about it, then decides it’s ‘too obvious’ to use as propaganda material.

He gets a tip off from an unammed source that B5’s command crew have ditched their Earthforce uniforms for all-black ones of alien design… he thinks about it, then decides it’s ‘too obvious’ to use as propaganda material.

Bwahahaa. True that.

I mean, alright, you’ve got a crush on your mentor – who hasn’t?

While Delenn certainly crushed on Dukhat, I don't think Na'Toth did on G'Kar. As for Vir, he clearly loves Londo to bits, but in a family type of relationship fashion and without idealizing him at the same time. It's a pure love. *g* Okay, more serious now, Lennier is deluded as hell here, and maybe it's because I recently listened to Camelot, but I expect him to start sing C'est Moi any time now in the Marcus scene. Maybe because the self delusion is that obvious I don't think "what a prick" but "oh, Lennier, you really need to grow up, poor guy".

Delenn and Marcus: not sure, because while she nominally turned over command of the Anla'shock on the station to Sheridan, she seems to be the one in actual charge of the Rangers on B5. So it's in a way her job to push Marcus, especially if she think he'll just internalize and stew and explode at a future point otherwise, since she's his sort-of-boss. Though perhaps the more tactful thing to do would have been to sic Lennier on him to begin with, since Marcus clearly finds it easier to tal to Lennier as an equal.

I like to imagine there’s some ISN propagandist on Earth working out how to spin things when the station goes back on the air. He gets a tip off from an unammed source that B5’s command crew have ditched their Earthforce uniforms for all-black ones of alien design… he thinks about it, then decides it’s ‘too obvious’ to use as propaganda material.

ROFLMAO.

Yes, THIS.

They really are snazzy uniforms. But seriously, folks? Seriously? And JMS is usually so careful about his symbolism, too.

Hi all, newbie here and very excited to find a place to chat about B5. I just finished my second viewing of the series thanks to my son giving me the ENTIRE B5 universe on DVD for Christmas.

The fact that they were expecting trouble was mentioned in the last episode so the hostage situation wasn't so surprising here. I'm also a fan of "action figure John" so that was fun to watch. (Interesting aside: there sure are a lot of lefties on this show)

I'm a big John/Delenn fan and JMS doesn't always write the best romantic scenes but the one between John and Delenn in the medlab was one of his better ones.

The Londo scene reminded me that he's very smart and quite capable of playing the political game. I couldn't help but think that "what goes around,comes around" during that scene. I was concerned for Londo here. I also don't think he poisoned Refa's drink.

I have to wonder why Delenn didn't do something about Lennier. Surely she had to know he had a crush on her. She certainly had one on Dukhat so she was familiar with the idea. He only kidding himself, here.

And, oh, the Minbari and their rituals! I remember reading that it was originally supposed to be Sinclair involved with Delenn and I can see where he would have fit perfectly with her. I've always seen Sheridan and Sinclair as two sides of the same coin. Sinclair is as inward as Sheridan is outward. Sinclair is a deliberate, thoughtful character whereas Sheridan is a spontaneous, shoot-from-the-hip type. I could just see Sinclair having no trouble integrating himself into the ritualistic part of the Minbari lifestyle.

Garibaldi's the only one I'm sure was left-handed (he had a special PPG made up for him). Now I have to watch the fight scene again (oh noes!)

Have you ever noticed how many blue-eyed/light-eyed people there are in this show? It's weird.

Oddly, I heard one critique of the show that had Sinclair has the mad impulsive one and Sheridan as more deliberate. Everyone has their own interpretations, and that's what makes it fun.

I'm almost positive Bruce is a southpaw; at least when he signs his name. I thought some of the others were as well. I'll have to watch to be sure. I really needed another reason to re-re-watch the shows. ;)

I based my desription of the the two men in terms of their military style. The one maneuver I saw Sinclair conduct was very precise whereas Sheridan tends to think on his feet and is one of those wild card types that is unpredictable in the heat of battle. I would have loved to have see the two of them fight a few battles together.

Edited 2010-02-17 11:08 (UTC)

I fall pretty much on your version of the two men. Although Sinclair had that death wish thing going, always rushing off into battle. Sheridan delegated more I think.

They met during the Food Riots on Mars, didn't they? There's a fic that needs written!

In retrospect Sinclair did have a lot more reckless action hero type moments than Sheridan. Of course, season one had a lot more 'monster' episodes in general...

It's a common criticism of the character, but I always assumed Sinclair was meant to be unnaturally stiff - someone who doesn't feel they can relax, and doesn't trust their own instincts very well. When he does take action, it's reckless and not well thought out - so he stifles his natural instincts to act and tries to avoid confrontation instead. Sheridan's a lot more relaxed and is better at spur-of-the-moment plans since he's not holding himself in check or giving into the moment entirely.

At least, that's how I always saw it. Sinclair's a lot more relaxed in "War Without End" - I imagine mainly because he feels a lot more in control of his life as a Ranger than he ever did on B5...

I like that interpretation of Sinclair actually. It's more than just introvert/extrovert, self-doubting/confident. I wonder if their war experience had something to do with their different approaches.

Man, now I'd really like to read a fic where Sheridan and Sinclair play chess against each other, or some sort of tactics training simulator, or something, to explore those style differences.

Here we are in the lull between storms, the low point on the roller coaster. Soon, soon, we start back up. (Yes, I am enjoying this, and I don't even like roller coasters!)

Londo is still trying to escape the consequences of his actions. He doesn't say 'boo' to Refa's announcement that he plans to become Emperor. Course he knows who two of the next few emperors will be. Interesting that Cartagia is 'a fool' rather than a psychopath. Brr.

Oh, Lennier. Still, he's trying to put a good face on it, and I have to believe that Minbari just don't go chasing after people who are 'fated for another'. (And that's a point I can go round and round on. Is that Lennier's opinion, or Delenn's, or prophecy, or what?) The capacity for self-deception is nearly unlimited in a lot (maybe most) people. I like it when he loses it and threatens Marcus. 'We are not you.' How does he feel about the introduction of humans into the ranks of the Anla'Shok, a relatively recent innovation?

I think Delenn is well aware of Lennier's feelings, she just thinks he can handle them. She gives him credit for being able to. At this point I don't blame her much; it's later that I think she fails him. and badly. Lennier is one of her big blind spots; which to my mind makes her most interesting, and more real.

The rebirth ceremony is (in my mind, and my fic) one of the most important rituals (and the basis of many). A great change...it covers so many things that happen in life. Oddly, I kept watching for the explanation that the person receiving the confidences had to keep silence--that's a fic convention, not canon, isn't it?
What Lennier gave up; what Delenn would have told and to whom; that's the stuff that fic is made of. *rubs hands gleefully*

I wonder whether Refa's team knew all about Cartagia and how to keep him away from sharp objects, and Londo undercutting Refa gave Cartagia the freedom to do as he pleased.

That's possible; it's also possible that Cartagia was smart enough to keep his more obvious peculiarities hidden until he was Emperor. (Also remember, that Refa was looking for someone young and easily manipulatable; to some extent, it was a case of finding only what you look for.

"Ceremonies of Light and Dark" discussion

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject