b5_revisited | "War without End" discussion

Oh how I love every single thing about these two episodes. These are the episodes that made me appreciate Jeff, which I didn't do in his first season. I so remember how HOLY SHIT I felt when I figured out that he is Valen. Absolutely wonderful character arc. Oh, and Zathras explaining the one who was, the one who is, and the one who will be: That's why Sheridan has always been there! *loves*

Continuity makes me happy. Zathras makes me happy. Londo breaks my heart in all the best ways.

I have no clue how to be objective/analytical about this pair of episodes; it's all love and joy.

This is the episode I always point to for people I introduce to the show. I simply tell them that JMS is a genius storyteller and they have to hang in until they see this episode.

I missed Michael O'Hare when he left and I was beyond thrilled to see the payoff for Sinclair. The scene where he takes command of the White Star barking those commands in Adronato. His tender scene with Delenn where he tries to comfort her about John. My happy surprise at the revelation that John and Delenn married and had a son. Londo's dream becoming reality. The foreshadowing of Anna's return. Not to mention that time travel is one of my favorite sci-fi things(space battles are my other favorite).

Let's not forget JMS' slick manuevering around that scene from "Babylon Squared" with an aged Sinclair.

I could gush for days.

Anyway, I'll step aside now for the people who will view this in a more objective frame of mind.

Edited 2010-03-22 04:11 (UTC)

Let's not forget JMS' slick manuevering around that scene from "Babylon Squared" with an aged Sinclair.

You know, that was the only part that DIDN'T work for me. Knowing that he had to get older (somehow), the explanation seemed a little...forced.

Nothing like a good time distortion field to blame something on. ;)

I don't think there can be an objective frame of mind for these two episodes. They are the magic episodes for me. I remembere the surprise when I saw them the first time. Everything, and I do mean everything, led us to this part.

Zathras was so wise in his words and his ways. "Yes, yes! Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life! Probably have very sad death, but at least there is symmetry!" and " Cannot run out of time. There is infinite time. You are finite. Zathras is finite. This…is wrong tool."

I can't even pinpoint the most amazing but I'm pretty that Valen and the two Vorlons greeting the Minbari a thousand years in the past was it! That just blew me away!

Um, I'm done squeeing too.

Next!

I love these episodes because they showcase what a master storyteller JMS is. The return of Sinclair, the future scenes on Centauri Prime that we don't understand until seasons later, the scenes from an earlier season that we get to understand now. He weaves them beautifully.

And, as a J/D fan, I was excited about that kiss. The one that didn't really count. I am willing to bet that JMS got a sadistic kick out of doing that to the fans. And we loved him for it.

That kiss! How could I forget to mention that. That scene was so well played. Bruce did a great job showing Sheridan's confusion, surprise and elation. The kiss had just the right amount of desperation to it. It was the best kiss we got from them. I also thought the idea of backlighting the scene made it seem that much more surreal.

Considering every unexpected change that took place in the series, the fact that “War Without End” works at *all* as the flip side to “Babylon Squared” is impressive – and it works quite well, doing some clever work patching up some of the areas that needed to be fixed (“The One”, Lady Ladira’s vision of B5’s destruction), while wrapping up Sinclair’s storyline in a very satisfying fashion – and, oddly, providing the end of Londo’s storyline a season or two before we get the middle.

A random odd thought about the “everyone dies” timeline. Now, it seems to me that if B4 was destroyed before going back in time, the long term effects would be a bit more significant than just “The Shadows would have more ships” –without Valen, Minbari society is completely different, if the Battle of the Line occurs at all, Sinclair wouldn’t be identified as Valen, and either way there probably wouldn’t be a Babylon Project at all.

It occurs to me, though, that there is a valid point of difference that could lead to a timeline where the Shadows attack B5 directly – if Sheridan had decided not to go to Z’ha’dum, the Shadows could easily have decided since there was no chance of convincing him to defect they should just deal with B5 directly – as they might have done anyway, had they not recalled their forces after Sheridan nuked Z’ha’dum directly. And, of course, the reason Sheridan goes to Z’ha’dum is because he thinks that will avert the future he saw in this episode.

Yeah, I know, the timeline doesn’t quite work out – but as I said, there’s holes in the theory that B5’s destruction is the product of a B4-less timeline too. And either way, the events of this episode do prevent that timeline- just not in the way everyone assumed.

And, of course, it would make sense if everything ended up revolving around Centauri Prime. On that note, I like how the future destruction of Centauri Prime is treated with the same sort of importance most shows would reserve for Earth alone.

Garibaldi’s scenes in Part One are real gut-punch, huh? I’m convinced if this hadn’t happened, he’d never have been anywhere near as susceptible to Bester’s manipulation. The sense of being abandoned by a friend and no longer having someone he unconditionally trusted running the Army of Light must have been perfect material to drive a wedge between him and anyone else.

(And it may just be me, but it’s hard not to see Sinclair and Garibaldi’s relationship as at least a little slashy, particularly when there’s the parallel between future Delenn trying futily to warn Sheridan not to go to Z’ha’dum and Sinclair impulsively trying to warn past Garibaldi.)

Lucy and Ethel? That’s a pretty obscure reference even today. I guess if you hang around Garibaldi enough, you pick up all sorts of 20th century pop culture by osmosis…

oddly, providing the end of Londo’s storyline a season or two before we get the middle.

Last year an aquaintance finished watching B5 and promptly complained we never find out what happens to Londo and G'Kar. I said "but didn't you watch WWE? We find out in s3!" "You mean that was real?" he asked back.

It was a daring storytelling choice, and totally worked for me, for reasons mentioned in my comment below. Though admittedly during the original broadcast I was still so conditioned by earlier sci fi that I expect this timeline to change by subsequent actions so Londo's fate would be prevented.

On that note, I like how the future destruction of Centauri Prime is treated with the same sort of importance most shows would reserve for Earth alone.

Yes yes yes. One of many reasons why I love the show.

(And it may just be me, but it’s hard not to see Sinclair and Garibaldi’s relationship as at least a little slashy, particularly when there’s the parallel between future Delenn trying futily to warn Sheridan not to go to Z’ha’dum and Sinclair impulsively trying to warn past Garibaldi.)

It's not just you. I remember back in the day Garibaldi/Sinclair being the biggest slash 'ship in a mostly het oriented fandom. :) Re: slashy parallels - there's also the use of "old friend" by Sinclair towards Garibaldi and Londo towards G'Kar in the flash forward. Seriously though, I think Garibaldi really loved Sinclair, whether one wants to interpret that as utterly platonic and fraternal or in a more subtextual and homoerotic manner, and it took him a long, long time to get over Sinclair leaving and the reality of never seeing him again.

Re: Bester's manipulations - I'm always torn as to whether the whole "Face of the Enemy" thing would have worked better or worse for B5 as originally conceived, with Sinclair instead of Sheridan. On the one hand, Garibaldi handing over Sinclair to Clark's forces would have been incredibly gut wrenching and would have had exactly the tpe of "betrayal with a kiss/ best friends turned against each other" resonance JMS was obviously going for in the final product as well, where it doesn't quite have that resonance to me because Sheridan and Garibaldi were never that close. Otoh, Garibaldi turning against Sinclair instead of Sheridan would have been so obviously the product of outside forces interfering that Our Heroes would have looked incredibly dumb not to twig that far earlier in s4, whereas Garibald turning against Sheridan could have happened in a believable fashion without Bester's influence.

Lucy and Ethel: he, even at the time of first broadcast as a non-American I had no idea what he was talking about and had to look it up. I also misheard "Lewis and Clark" as "Lois & Clark" (which was broadcasting during that period as well) and wondered which of the two Sinclair cast mentally as Superman, and whom as Lois Lane...

If it had still been Sinclair in S4, I suspect it would be hard not to read Garibaldi quiting as the result of jealousy over Jeff leaving him for Lorien... *grin*

The first time I attempted to watch B5, as a teenager around 1998, it was mostly because I'd read a summary of "Bablyon Squared" and "War Without End", and it hit a whole lot of my early narrative kinks: time travel, closed temporal loops, flash-forwards, flash-forwards to dystopic futures, doomed couples stealing moments together in cells before execution, OTPs producing spawn who end up in danger. (They're not very sophisticated narrative kinks.)

Needless to say, when I finally got to watch WWE last year, it had a lot to live up to. The amazing thing is how perfect it is: passable time travel logic (I agree with

4thofeleven that destroying B4 changes maybe too much to be sure that the Bablyon Project would even happen, although I'm prepared to believe that it's what the Tenth Doctor would call a "fixed point"), a neat balance of ensemble work, individual character moments, plot, etc.

Also, my latent inner Delenn/Sinclair shipper gets wibbly at the bit where they speak Adronato, because I'm a pathetic fool like that.

At

selenak's suggestion, I recently bought and read the In the Beginning novelisation, whose framing device is set concurrently with Sheridan's flash-forwards. I read that, and then I gritted my teeth and ~~read~~ ~~attempted to read~~ skimmed relevant bits of The Fall of Centauri Prime, the novel that deals with the same period. And I was really quite annoyed to realise that PDavid's two versions of the same events don't even add up (yes, I am comfortable with my identity as a pedantic nerd), plus I have a hard time reconciling the David-Sheridan-with-Keeper story as PDavid tells it with (a) Delenn's claim to Sheridan in the cell that their son is safe and she's ready to face death, or (b) the mention of the incident in "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars", which implies something far more devastating and scandalous than what we got. And I have a hard time believing that the Drakh's plan went:

1. Give David Sheridan a Keeper.
2. Wait 17 years for it to activate.
3. ??????????????
4. Profit.

It just seems like there are more straightforward ways of torturing and killing Delenn and Sheridan, if that was their goal. Even for Shadow servants, it's a bit arcane.

Dystopic flash-forwards, man. I'm all over that.

For someone who mainly writes media tie-ins of one form or another, Peter David is really terrible at continuity - even when it is, as you noted, his *own* continuity he's dealing with.

IT IS VERY AGGRAVATING! I mean, I've written novel-length fics, I know it can be tough to keep everything in the right place, but he has proper editors! Not to mention, one assumes, the same access to paper and Blu-Tac and coloured pencils and Post-It notes that I have!

The David thing is the exact point where genre conventions start seriously clashing with the political ideologies JMS consciously wants to promote, because there is no reason in a democratic universe for anyone to assume that David will be a politically influential figure because of who his parents were. (It would be great if the Drakh, because of their own feudalist thinking, ended up wasting their top Keeper on the 23rd-century equivalent of Mark Thatcher.)

I assume that's the advantage of getting him when he's very young -- the adult children of Margaret Thatcher being douchebags isn't really all that newsworthy or interesting in and of itself, but George W. Bush's teenaged daughters being caught drunk driving (or ... something?) is.

Also, I discard Peter David's novel, and assume that the Keeper had David do something actually significant, like an assassination attempt on Vir, for example. But mostly I think he was bait to put Delenn within the hands of a Keeper*; I just don't know why that would take sixteen years.

* Because I said so? Also, killing Sheridan and Delenn shouldn't have that devastating effect on an ostensibly-democratic Alliance, but killing Sheridan and putting Delenn under a Keeper's control would be fantastic. Not least because Delenn has a history of becoming, shall we say, a bit despotic when grief-stricken.

I always assumed it was just petty personal revenge - it doesn't get them anything other than a chance to hurt the individuals who destroyed their home world, and they wanted David old enough that he could easily leave Minbar and head to one of their strongholds.

And who said the Alliance was democratic? I mean, yes, it may vote on things, but it didn't seem any more democratic than, say, the Holy Roman Empire. Earth seems to be the only major democracy in the Alliance, and they don't seem to get an ambassador!

I always assumed it was just petty personal revenge...

But petty revenge is so ... petty! And why settle for a petty revenge, when you can torture and humiliate people first?

And who said the Alliance was democratic?

It does seem like an increasingly generous assumption, I'll grant. I choose to believe it's a mutated version of the Westminster system, with presidents voted by member representatives, who are in turn chosen by whatever method is most appropriate to their homeworld.

Earth seems to be the only major democracy in the Alliance, and they don't seem to get an ambassador!

I like to think that was an oversight as a consequence of all the chaos after Clark was deposed, and eventually Luchenko looked up and said, "Hang on, what? Wow, that's embarrassing."

I've always thought that, as well as a bit of personal revenge, the purpose they had for David was part of a plan to use the Centauri as an assult on the alliance as a whole.

They know the Alliance is the direct result of Sheriden/Delenn's leadership. By hitting their son with a keeper they have a great way of luring the two most inspirational and important Alliance figures away from their posts, possibly even without anyone knowing why they've disappeared. Then they have the ideal opportunity to attack the Alliance without the uniting guidance of their two leading lights.

Then all you need is a staged transgression (easy to do with keepers, or the shadow-pods they used to stage Centauri attacks, or even with the lasting hatred some races have towards the Centauri) from an Alliance race, say the Narn or the Drazi, and you have a war with a resurgent Centauri Republic that many Allinace races could easily be reluctant to join in, especially if the Centauri play a cunning game of divide and conquer. This may, of course, explain the renewed bitterness in the G'Kar-Londo relationship which makes him the ideal assassin at the end.

You do see renewed bitterness there at the end with G'Kar then? There are two alternate readings of that; that G'Kar hates Londo and takes this opportunity to kill him (certainly my first interpretation) but I also think there's some validity to the idea that G'Kar is killing Londo cause Londo asked him too.

I like both, but I'm flexible that way.

I like your idea of a staged transgression starting the war. What I'm working towards is this being the 'Drakh War' Delenn mentions in the S4 epilogue. It would seem to be Centauri at first, of course. I want to bring in the long history of the Centauri as an aggressive race...I read in the Chronology (I think?) that the League of Non-Aligned Worlds was formed by those races that had thrown off the yoke of the Centauri Empire, and then were threatened by the Dilgar. War without end, indeed.

I think it's something of both alternatives, that G'Kar kills Londo to release him from the keeper, but also because he knows that only Londo has the talent to do... well, whatever he's done to the Alliance at this point. Certainly I think there's more than a little feeling in the words Londo uses 'I am as tired of my life as you are', which is very different from their almost playful banter during S5. It's primarily this line that implies some renewed bitterness.

As far as my reading of likely events is, the Drakh are likely to be using the Centauri as a tool against the Alliance, but their involvement is revealed when Sheriden escapes from Londo and returns to the Alliance. They then have to link with the resistance led by Vir to locate the Drakh bases.

Personally, I suspect that Londo will have been using his drunk time to help Vir infiltrate the Centauri military, so a large chunk of it will immediately switch sides, but then I've always felt that when the Drakh took over Londo they were making their own Sword of Damocles. I love the idea of Londo and Vir playing the long game and slowly forming a weapon against the Drakh, primed to fire when Londo dies at G'Kar's hands. There's a part of his speech made before his crowning that mentions turning their anger against those responsible for the destruction on Centauri Prime. When the screen cuts to an approving nod from the Drakh controlling Londo, that just makes me think 'I know exactly who you're thinking of, and it's not the Alliance'. The Drakh should know better than to think they can out-intrigue the Centauri.

I always felt bad for David that he was the only one not around to see his dad off on that "Sunday drive". I understand JMS' explannation of why we never saw him and I can understand Sheridan not wanting him there. I would think that would hurt on some level.It's a heavy burden being the son of two legends. He probably joined the Rangers because he felt it was expected of him. I'm sure John and Delenn would never push this on him, but others certainly would have had their own expectations.

I like David as a character to write, but feel he probably joined the Rangers of his own volition, out of not fitting in anywhere else. I have them as extended family in his childhood and so it's natural he stays with them.

My explanation for the Sunday drive has always been that John didn't have an exact date/time for his demise, only the approximate year. It would have warped David, I think, for him to be waiting around Minbar so he could be there. The one time I wrote this out, I had David off-planet on a mission, getting a message from his father when he started having the dreams to come home, but arriving just too late. Yes, I do love me some angst :)

I can see David joining the Rangers for that reason. I figure he looked mostly human but just alien enough to look different. The cultural diversity of the Rangers would be a perfect fit.

If there was enough time to get the rest of them there, there was enough time to get David there. I figure they never told him about his dad's condition until after the fact. I see John as leaving him one of those messages like we saw in "Sleeping In Light".

No, no. The rest of them were on Earth and Mars and Centauri Prime. And since everything is three days away from everything else (source: JMS hand-waving :) they were really quite close. David was away away--you know, out towards the Rim. A rare-ish opportunity to get out there. He couldn't not go, and John wouldn't ask him not to. Alternately he was somewhere he couldn't get the message right away. He got back as quick as he could. (I'm taking this too seriously, aren't I?)

I see John as leaving him one of those messages like we saw in "Sleeping In Light".

Heh. We think alike.

I have to dig up my laboriously arrived at distance chart now and check figures. I do remember Z'ha'dum is nowhere near as far away as it should be. *waves hands furiously*

He's one of those characters who just seems set up for years and years of therapy, even before the Drakh get their hands on him. Which just makes him interesting to me, because I like stories about characters struggling to get out of the shadow of extraordinary parents, and also stories about mothers and sons.

But excluding him from the farewell gathering in "Sleeping in Light" seems like a really terrible choice, and the emotional consequences for David (and Delenn) are potentially profound.

*is routing for David Sheridan to be Mark Thatcher as well*

That's a great idea. Someone should write the fanfic.

Like everyone else here, I love War Without End to bits. Must attempt to be analytical nonetheless. So:

I'll never forget the jawdropping effect the three big revelations had on me the first time around - Sinclair being Valen, Londo and the Keeper, and the true reason for Londo and G'Kar killing each other. It says something about the quality of the two parter that despite being a Centauriphile, the Valen issue still completely caught my attention. Actually, even without that, I think this is Michael O'Hare's best performance as Sinclair on the show. He's relaxed and at peace with himself in a way he wasn't before - which fits with what happens to the charcter, of course - and there is both sadness and grace in all his scenes, along with some wry humour in his interactions with Sheridan. (Who comes across as remarkably boyish and young by comparison.) Also: the fact Sinclair is literally Valen, not a reincarnation but the same person in the flesh, makes the whole soul sharing business and the Minbari instruments responding to him nicely ambigious.

Speaking of sadness: "Goodybe, Michael." I really feel for Garibaldi there, every time.

Marcus & Ivanova are cute together, and the Sheridan/Delenn stuff is an original way to tease and avoid the "first kiss" cliché, but seriously, neither has a chance to compete in my viewing attention with Old Londo, the Keeper and G'Kar. One of the big, big reasons why one should see this show unspoiled is that Londo referring to G'Kar as his friend, sincerely, not sarcastically, really sends your head spinning. (As does the fact G'Kar kills Londo upon Londo's own request.) Until this moment, viewers expect Londo's death dream to play out, if it does, in the way present day Londo does too, as Londo and G'Kar coming to the end of their feud in a lethal way. Yes, G'Kar had an epiphany this season, but let's not forget that the previous episode just re-confirmed Londo's alliance with the Shadows. So "friend" is a biggie and of course what I wanted to see most from this point onwards in every subsequent episode was how they get there. I love this show.

Londo's death dream, familiar to the viewers since three seasons, recontextualized: best twist on a prophecy in sci fi, yes/yes?

The Keeper revelation was gutwrenching the first time and is gut wrenching still. One of the darkest fates given to a character. And yet, the reason why Londo's arc is so good is that he did his share to bring it about, and his tragedy is also part of his redemption.

Great as the whole space suit swapping in order to make everything fit with Babylon Squared is, the one point where my suspension of disbelief breaks down is when The One In A Space Suit touches s1 Sinclair, and the two get thrown apart. This was obviously meant as the result of the same person in two different timelines touching, and makes no sense if it's simply Delenn in a suit touching s3 Sinclair.

Delenn's flash forward to spending the night with Sheridan: made it pretty obvious the female person entering had to be Anna, but that's okay.

In conclusion: Awesome two parter is awesome. And nobody listens to Zathras.

Delenn's flash forward to spending the night with Sheridan: made it pretty obvious the female person entering had to be Anna, but that's okay.

The anticipation of the inevitable is just as good as the surprise.

I recently came across an episode reaction from a person who was totally unspoiled, and she not only guessed it was Anna, but recognised Melissa Gilbert from one word. Since I had literally never heard of Gilbert before B5, I was deeply impressed.

I recognized her voice, too. I spent a not-insubstantial part of my childhood watching her play Laura Ingalls.

See, it was news to me that the Little House books had even been adapted for television. But I grew up under a rock.

I definitely remember both recognizing the voice and realizing that she was married to Bruce and going, "wouldn't it be interesting if..." all those years ago and having the rest of fandom look at me like I had 3 heads.

It was fun being right :D

I love this episode with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns, and I find myself almost too incoherent to comment. Almost. :)

The only things that I can contribute, aside from the general squee-fest--

When I first watched B Squared I thought the firefight was from some time Jeff and Michael served together on Mars. Too wrong.
This is the first re-watch where I thought that Londo had asked G'Kar to kill him.
The never-a-first-kiss paradox both delighted and infuriated me on the first (several) viewings, to the extent that I wrote a series of ficlets shoehorning kisses into every episode from Race Thru Dark Place through WWE. I have mentioned I'm fixated, right?

The whole alternate universe scenario as presented by Delenn doesn't make sense but she's no tactician. The face that they had video from 1000 years ago rammed home the age of their civilization. I like to imagine Sheridan and Ivanova war-gaming this scenario later and going 'whoo boy, was she off a little bit.'

This is a 'look' episode. I adore Sinclair's look at Sheridan and Delenn hand-holding on the bridge. Gulp. Delenn's look when they're waiting on the White Star and she decides to hell with it; I'll get him back myself. Gulp. Sheridan's look when he tells Delenn he trusts her with his life. Preview of Z'ha'dum. Gulp.

Sinclair in general is marvellous.

Who would have been Lucy and who would have been Ethel? I actually found the Butch and Sundance thing painful. And funny...

Butch Cassidy: Alright. I'll jump first.
Sundance Kid: No.
Butch Cassidy: Then you jump first.
Sundance Kid: No, I said.
Butch Cassidy: What's the matter with you?
Sundance Kid: I can't swim.
Butch Cassidy: Are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.
Sundance Kid: Oh, shit...

I think David's Keeper was part of a fall-back plan to lure Sheridan and Delenn to Centauri Prime to kill them and destroy the Alliance. Caveat: I have not read the CP trilogy and don't plan to for a while as I've been gradually writing out my own version of this sequence of events. This theory is part of that.

I'll stop now.

I think David's Keeper was part of a fall-back plan to lure Sheridan and Delenn to Centauri Prime to kill them and destroy the Alliance. Caveat: I have not read the CP trilogy and don't plan to for a while as I've been gradually writing out my own version of this sequence of events. This theory is part of that.

I agree. See further up for my comment on the subj.

I love this episode with the white-hot heat of a thousand suns

Phew, I got overheated just reading that.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the whole "alternate universe scenario".

Could you elaborate a bit?

Edited 2010-03-23 00:40 (UTC)

The whole 'what if we didn't take B4 back in time and so the Shadows have lots-o ships left' scenario as mentioned by 4thofeleven above. It really would have many more ramifications than Delenn goes into here. For one thing, as already mentioned, Earth and Minbar might have given up on building B5 if B4 blew up, or Minbar might have gone it alone and built a different B5 (ooh, I like that one!), or maybe they would have found film of the Shadow crabs leaving the fusion bomb in the wreckage (ala Keffer) and discovered the Shadows earlier...I can go on, but it's time for work. :)
I do love AUs!

You know, as soon as I sent that reply, it dawned on me what you meant. I'm so dense sometimes. :p

Not so dense, the interlaced comments get confusing and I should have cited 4thofeleven. Besides, the morning flight of fancy was fun. :)

Think of the political possibilities! A Minbari-centric B5, maybe with most of the Council? Or only some...the Narn and Centauri on different sides. The League stays allied with Earth. Bester breaks away from PsiCorps when the Shadows want to use his teeps in ships, and joins the Minbari with a rogue group. A replay of the Earth-Minbari War with the Shadows backing Earth and the Vorlons backing Minbar. See? Fun!

Perfect! Now all you have to do is shoehorn Sinclair and Sheridan in there somewhere.

Sinclair is co-opted by the Minbari (OK I have no idea how) and Sheridan fights for Earth. *cue ominous drum-roll*

Well Sinclair is easy,just stick to canon...captured,makes the triluminary glow,Minbari sue for peace.

The shadows refuse of course which pisses off Starkiller because he wants to go home to Anna who of course is under shadow control,but I digress.

John-boy always did like secrets and when he figures it all out...can you say rebels?

And we are waaaaay off topic so maybe we should stop.

EDITED: Because I meant to say I'll PM you. Geeze!

Edited 2010-03-24 00:37 (UTC)

I'd kind of like to see an AU where the losses suffered in the last Shadow War force the Minbari to flee into Vorlon space, where they gradually fade into myth, while the victorious Shadows encourage the Drakh to settle in the abandoned Minbari systems, and they spend the next thousand years operating openly, recognised by the other races as one of the major powers...

Adding to the chorus of squee, I think this is probably the best and most coherent time-travel storyline I've come across (questions about the alternativbe timeline notwithstanding).

First time round, and (as a late starter) not then having seen B Squared, I had to sit down and work it out on paper, and it all fitted.
Brilliant.

I also hadn't seen unsuited Vorlons before, so the Valen scene really spooked me (in a good way)!

Oddly however, I am less keen on Sinclair here than as a commander. The spiritual aura (which I otherwise liked) is getting too much, and the old awkwardness is somehow missing...I'm probably just jealous.
It was interesting how nobody questions his assuming command when Sheridan disappears. He is not really part of the chain of command of either the Minbari (unless the White Star crew are all rangers) or B5, but at the same time it just feels natural.

I have to agree on Sinclair - it makes sense he's a lot more relaxed than he was in S1, but I think it's taken a bit too far here. If he'd had more appearances so we actually saw him ease into the role of Entil'Zha and to work through his demons, it'd be fine, but as it is, it's a bit abrupt to go from the Sinclair we saw in "Chrysalis" to this.

I will add to the squee-ing. This ep begins the long string of what really makes this show great for me, all the way up through Deconstruction of Falling Stars (with a couple exceptions, Grey 17 for example...)

I always thought this and Babylon Squared worked perfectly together, and the fact that you had to wait almost 2 seasons for the payoff was both cruel and awesome on JMS's part. The only part that bugged me was the whole "woman in the red dress" bit from the end of BSquared that we didn't actually see wholly filmed, except we know that it was Delenn by the end of WWE.

I love that we know have our 3rd(?) interpretation of what actually happens to B5 and who is in the shuttle when it comes out. The fact that that was always how it was going to end and that everyone keeps having the same flash and getting different information from it, also awesome.

Also one of my favorite Sheridan bits, "if you remember anything else from the list of stuff we're not supposed to know, please tell us." Classic.

I always thought that it was awesome that everyone was going off "prophecy" that was actually Sinclair just relating history as he knew it to the Minbari. That's just brilliant.

I can't add much new, but will say these are some of my favourite episodes.

The clip of Susan in the AU as B5 is about to be destroyed by the Shadows, the terror in her voice, gives me the chills every time.

The final shot of Valen flanked by the two angels, er, Vorlons, is still an amazing one. :D

"War without End" discussion

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