"No Surrender, No Retreat" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 4X15, "No Surrender, No Retreat". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan leads an attack force to liberate Proxima 3.

Extra reading:
The article for "No Surrender, No Retreat" at The Lurker's Guide.

Comments

I.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

hobsonphile used to joke about this one that you know you're a Centauriphile if the only thing you remember about this episode are the two big Londo/G'Kar scenes and the one with Vir and blank when asked about the crucial Earth Civil War battle. Which is true. I tried to pay attention to the rest this time, I swear I did, but it's still a bit hazy in the wake of ZOMG LONDO AND G'KAR PETER JURASIK AND ANDREAS KATSULAS ARE GODS OF ACTING.

However. Here's an attempt to comment on the rest. I hadn't remembered (see above) that this is when Sheridan first mentions his idea about the frozen telepaths (though we don't hear yet what exactly he wants with them). Which fits with his new determination to stop Clark whatever it costs. Also, the portrayal of the Earth Force captains, with one hardliner and the others both reluctant to carry out morally wrong orders but also not keen on breaking their Earth Force oath is nicely mixed. I wish that JMS had already known Claudia Christian would leave the show after the season was over, then he could have introduced Lochley here as the female captain; their positions sound pretty identical, and it would have been neat, continuity-wise.

...enough about the humans; I tried. Let's go to the highlights.

Viiiiiir! Seeing him again reminded me we haven't since Into the Fire, which is a shame. His nightmare probably is about Cartagia; aw, Vir. The scene with Garibaldi contains one of the great Vir lines - "I don't like the way Londo is doing things at times - me and most civilized worlds..." - and is captivating for several reasons: Vir's equation of Londo with Sheridan as someone who while sometimes using shady methods can be trusted to care about their people foremost not least. (It's not a comparison the other characters of the show would agree on, I suppose.) Also, it's interesting Garibaldi intended to ask Londo for help; their friendship ended (from Garibaldi's side) in s2 because of Londo's actions, but I think Garibaldi was right to assume Londo would have helped him anyway.

Londo and G'Kar, G'Kar and Londo: these two scenes are among the highlights of the season for me. There is so much there. Londo's redemption is a work in progress because while he takes some responsibility - "because of the poor choices I made etc." - he's not yet able to acknowledge the full extent of it; it'll take until The very long night of Londo Mollari for that. When he has, in that later episode, his inner G'Kar say "you're not sorry for what you did, you're just sorry that you got caught, and that you nearly destroyed your homeworld by this" I think it's the reply real G'Kar doesn't make here during Londo's rambling monologue, to his "and because of this, my world was nearly destroyed". It's something Londo still struggles with - obviously he never wanted to endanger the Centauri, but for real regret, he has to repent what he did to the Narn, not just G'Kar, but the Narn in general - which is a different thing, and one reason why Na'Toth's reappearance in s5 is so important.

II

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Another of 1000 reasons why I love those scenes is that Londo is aware how easy it is to fall back to verbal sparring mode with G'Kar, and how he consciously tries to avoid that in order to have a real conversation with him - and G'Kar, while for the most part blocking and stonewalling, makes one genuine reply that "very long year" before landing his masterblow by pouring the drink back. It hurts each time, and yet of course G'Kar is acting completely understandable from his pov. Easy acceptance of Londo's offer would be wrong.

Yet why does he, in the end, sign and drink before the episode is over? There is the greater good reason, of course - Londo is right about the symbolic power of throwing their support behind Sheridan together - but there is also that G'Kar's first post-Centauri Prime solution - "you don't exist in my universe" (Epiphanies) - is not going to work. Not least because Londo, who always has trouble with the word "no", won't let it, but also because Londo is right re: their comet-status. They can't ignore each other or pretend the other doesn't exist, and they've done the enemies thing already. Neither of them, not even Londo at this point, would actually call the alternative "friendship", and much as Londo isn't ready to apologize yet, G'Kar is far from ready to forgive him, but that drink is also the acknowledgment that they can move on from the past and that they get each other on a level where no others do.

...err, was there something else happening in this episode?

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

Don't have a great deal to say about this, but I was on a discussion board at the time of airing with a number of people who were US military, and they seemed to think it was the best depiction they'd ever seen of current US official thought about the responsibilities of the military in a democratic society when faced with a tyrannical government.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, I loved the battle parts. I'm a space battle junkie. What can I say? I htought the battle was well done, even without our more modern CGI. That the captains refused to fire on other earth ships and had refused to fire on civilian transports is probably giving people too much credit. I'm a bit cynic.

Londo and G'Kar stole the show though I think I could limit that to Londo stole the show. At least for me. I usually want to whack him over the head but here, he is so forlorn.

I was rather hoping that we never had to look at Garibaldi again... that whole plot line bored me to tears.

[tea-drinker77.livejournal.com]

I just can't watch the first scene with Londo and G'Kar. Once was enough and now I have to leave the room whenever we watch this episode. It's a little too powerful for me!