b5_revisited | "And the Sky Full of Stars" discussion [spoilers]

While this is, of course, one of the big season one story arc episodes, it is also one of the first times that we see that the personnel of Babylon 5 aren't always squeaky clean. Benson is a %&$#-up, Sinclair knows it, Garibaldi knows it, the problems he has are not something that is unheard of in Earth Force.

From a science fiction perspective, it was very practical how Garibaldi sets up the search for Sinclair's body. While morbid, it makes perfect sense that this procedure might be used in this context in the same way that lakes were dredged.

While Knight Two is a bit of the standard mustache-twirling television heavy, it is nevertheless an interesting interrogation sequence. The irony of it all being that, if Sinclair could have been able to use the machine to uncover the events of those 24 hours without Knight Two's paranoia, he may have submitted to the procedure; it is an interesting moment when Sinclair himself gets caught up in the mystery of what has happened.

I love the idea that many on Earth who weren't on the Line really didn't understand just how incredibly hopeless mankind's last stand was. Indeed, it always seemed implied to me that the Minbari surrender was spun to make humans come out looking much better by the local government. I have to say that while effective, the special effects in this episode didn't necessarily have the scope necessary to convey the enormity of the battle, but knowing the whole story ahead of time allows one to take this sequence as being Sinclair's experience first and foremost.

This episode gets special mention from a musical perspective because in it Christopher Franke introduces his "Requiem for the Line" theme that will become a significant musical motif throughout the run of the series, and the third season main title. The cue where it is heard in full for the first time is part of the "Mind War" suite heard on Babylon 5 Volume 1 (http://www.sonicimages.com/action.lasso?-database=Products.fp5&-layout=CGI&-response=/2001/Sub/SIR/b5/index.html&-nothing) album (I excerpted this portion as "Sinclair Remembers" for my Babylon 5 (http://swashbuckler332.livejournal.com/667853.html) compilation). There is just something so helpless and desperate about that theme...

Edited 2009-03-15 18:56 (UTC)

While Knight Two is a bit of the standard mustache-twirling television heavy, it is nevertheless an interesting interrogation sequence. The irony of it all being that, if Sinclair could have been able to use the machine to uncover the events of those 24 hours without Knight Two's paranoia, he may have submitted to the procedure; it is an interesting moment when Sinclair himself gets caught up in the mystery of what has happened.

Just goes to show, that I don't think Knights 1 and 2 were sure if Sinclair was lying or not about the report at first. I mean, they probably planned for 'Minbari memory blocks', but I think they might have been hoping that Sinclair was simply lying and that most of the work was getting out exactly how bad Earth's military was compromised.

If they thought that was something like what Psi Corps did to Talia, where Sinclair's personality wasn't aware of a hidden plant and that he was genuinely loyal, they might have lured him in legitimately, which would save all the hassle of smuggling and kidnapping.

I love the idea that many on Earth who weren't on the Line really didn't understand just how incredibly hopeless mankind's last stand was. Indeed, it always seemed implied to me that the Minbari surrender was spun to make humans come out looking much better by the local government.

::nods:: It's come up before when Sinclair talks about the Line, especially to civilians. I suppose it's scary for the government to admit 'yeah, these folks could wipe us out whenever they feel like it, regardless of how many folks in ships we can get out there to shoot at them, and the only reason they didn't wasn't because of our Heroic Last Stand, but because they are weird aliens who surrendered for no reason they'll tell us'. 'Heroic last stand by our brave men and women and other in uniform' sounds so much better.

Wow. This is definitely one of the big episodes, isn't it! And, interestingly, an episode with, essentially, no B-plot. Everything in the 42 minutes feeds into the attempt to break into Sinclair's memories.

Major air-time for the Requiem for the Line, still one of my very favourite B5 themes.

The biggest thing I noticed here was how well-adjusted Sinclair is! His speech about the line was so powerful, and I really believed that he wanted to kill the Minbari he saw afterwards - "I saw the death of the whole human race", indeed. But we know from the show that he actually has an excellent relationship with Delenn, that he's clearly able to deal with Minbari, despite his past. That takes some doing. And again - they try to guilt him with Mitchell, and though he clearly remembers and mourns that death, he isn't willing to take responsibility for things that aren't actually his fault. Mitchell died disobeying orders, not because of them, and Sinclair knows that, even under stress and drugs and torture.

Other minor Sinclair notes: he's a Marsie! I hadn't remembered that. Although we're also told that he was an Earthforce brat, which might translate to higher status. Also, he apparently sleeps wearing a belt, which I find a little disturbing!

Delenn is the other important character here... I love her little conversation with Franklin about the war; it's set up as her being all grateful for his ethical stance, etc etc, poor little alien protected by the brave human *g*, and then Franklin's question turns it around on her, pointing up the comparison with her own rather bloody history! Which I guess we-the-viewer don't know at this point, any more than Franklin does, but in retrospect it's quite a striking moment.

And at the end, watching her walking out like that when he's armed and crazy: that takes serious guts, and a real solid belief in the relationship that she has with Sinclair, that she'll be able to reach him when even Garibaldi can't. And she's right; Sinclair, even maddened and hallucinating and taken right back to his lowest, remembering the fear and the hatred of the Minbari that he had back on the line, remembering Delenn there as one of his torturers - he still doesn't shoot her. I'm not sure, on a plausibility level, that I find it that convincing, but it's a powerful enough moment that I don't care!

And at the end, watching her walking out like that when he's armed and crazy: that takes serious guts, and a real solid belief in the relationship that she has with Sinclair, that she'll be able to reach him when even Garibaldi can't. And she's right; Sinclair, even maddened and hallucinating and taken right back to his lowest, remembering the fear and the hatred of the Minbari that he had back on the line, remembering Delenn there as one of his torturers - he still doesn't shoot her. I'm not sure, on a plausibility level, that I find it that convincing, but it's a powerful enough moment that I don't care!

It showcases Delenn's courage at a point where the new audience just has been given reason to be suspicious about her (would a newbie know she's not a villain?), and thus deepens her as a character. I also think that in addition to her trust in Sinclair and the friendship she's established with him, she believes she'll be able to reach him because of the Valen factor. Don't forget, later we find out Delenn as a child was lost and thought she saw Valen then, helping her; and she does have that iron conviction she's a woman of destiny. She's definitely a woman of faith. So she believes in him both because of Sinclair and because of Valen.

she does have that iron conviction she's a woman of destiny. She's definitely a woman of faith

True! And I think she'd have to be, to pull a stunt that stupid *g*. I think you have a good point with the Valen thing, too, that perhaps she thinks she can reach the Valen part of him even through his disorientation.

And I agree: it's particularly interesting in the light of the other revelations in the episode, Delenn getting more complex all the time...

Perhaps since she "knows" his destiny, she is sure all will come out well when she walks up to him.

I don't think she does, though - I mean, my understanding is that the Minbari think that Sinclair is the reincarnation of Valen; they don't know he's actually "Valen in the flesh", as

selenak put it. So she thinks she knows what he was and did in his last life, but not anything about his future.

Hmmm. I was always under the impression that by this time ten years after the war, they knew his identity and sent Delenn to guide him toward the actions that would make him Valen. But perhaps not.

No, I don't think so... don't forget the Minbari in Delenn's quarters who recommends she kill him if he figures anything out. They know something was up with Babylon 4, but they until "War Without End" I don't think they ever put all of it together.

If not for the Minbari in her quarters, I'd argue with you *grin* but I agree. I don't think they'd kill Valen under any circumstances!

Perhaps... but if he was reincarnated once, maybe he'll be reincarnated again. And possibly in a properly Minbari instead of one of those smelly ape things.

This is true! A real Minbari would be SO much better!

I was under the same impression, but perhaps Delenn and Sinclair hadn't known the specifics. Sinclair is related to Valen in some way, and Delenn knows that, and maybe they finally knew the truth when WWE rolled around and they both opened the chests.

I'm not so sure she does either, but for a different reason.

Was the Sinclair = Valen plotline in existence before Michael O'Hare left?

Otherwise, if JMS didn't know, neither would Delenn...

Also, he apparently sleeps wearing a belt, which I find a little disturbing!

To be fair, he's already in the simulation when he gets up; maybe he doesn't wear a belt in bed in real life, but in the simulation, he just imagines himself wearing a belt as soon as he gets up...

This was the episode when I thought there might be something to this JMS' fellows' claim that he wanted to do a "novel on television", with lengthy arcs. I had enjoyed and loved earlier episodes, but this one, which ironically enough I much admired but did not love, was the one that made me sit up and believe there was going a long term mystery, or several, and pay off for them.

In retrospect: it's interesting that each and everyone adresses Sinclair as "Commander" when he's in his own head, including Garibaldi, who rarely does so in real life. What I associate with this is Sheridan's early s2 statements that his wife and his career were the two things that meant the most to him and through which he defined himself, and of course, both in the course of the show are taken away, and he has to find another reply to the "Who are you?" question. Similarly with Sinclair. The constant uses of "commander" are probably a symptom of how much at this stage he still defines himself through his job, but that's already starting to change. Sinclair himself is in the process of change, and here it's highlighted how much when he admits he couldn't look at a Minbari without wanting to kill him/her for years, and this is juxtaposed with the friendship he's already struck up with Delenn.

Something that looks like from a Doylist pov it was mostly a way to heighten the "what are the Minbari up to with Sinclair now?" suspense is the "if he finds out, kill him" order to Delenn, as it doesn't exactly jive with what we later find out, that the triluminarium identified Sinclair as Valen and this - the realisation they had captured and tortured what they thought (not knowing Sinclair was actually Valen in the flesh, the first original version) was the rebirth of their Messiah - shocked them into ending the war at once, with a surrender. My Watsonian explanation is that they simply were afraid that if Sinclair found out he was Valen and turned out to still be an enemy of the Minbari, the damage he could do would be horrendous. Maybe Delenn's report about the War Prayer events heighten fears in this regard, too.

Also, this is one rare case where a medical emergency turned out to have positive effects, as Walter Koenig was originally scheduled to play Knight #2, and if he hadn't had his heart attack and had done so, Bester would never have existed.

Question: if Michael O'Hare had remained on the show, would we have returned to this particular conspiracy and Knight #2? I always suspected that this might have been the case; so instead of Lennier doing the exposition talk in 2.1. about what the Minbari found out, Sinclair finds out through the machine and/or the Knights.

it's interesting that each and everyone addresses Sinclair as "Commander" when he's in his own head, including Garibaldi, who rarely does so in real life

I agree it's an interesting point - though I think Garibaldi *does* usually call him "Commander" in official circumstances (and he does, at the end, when they're trying to talk him down). In personal conversations he quite often calls him Jeff, but not always.

It's also kind of depersonalising, isn't it? People don't relate to him as an individual, but as his job. So it suggests his overly-strong focus on his job, but also perhaps that he feels quite isolated at this point?

I expect Koenig would have improved this episode, but I agree: B5 without Bester would have been a much poorer place!

It's also kind of depersonalising, isn't it? People don't relate to him as an individual, but as his job. So it suggests his overly-strong focus on his job, but also perhaps that he feels quite isolated at this point?

Yes, which on the one hand is odd - he's just restarted his relationship with Catherine Sakai, he's got a best friend in Garibaldi and a new friend with Delenn - but on the other, if you see Sinclair as a person in transit - his old self got broken at the Battle of the Line, and he's been trying to avoid the question of who he is now since - not so much.

It also ties into Knight 2's observation about how Sinclair's identity is currently tied to Babylon 5. He is somebody whom one can expect to keep his personal relationships separate from his professional ones, but his self-identifier is his function on board the station.

Also, this is one rare case where a medical emergency turned out to have positive effects, as Walter Koenig was originally scheduled to play Knight #2, and if he hadn't had his heart attack and had done so, Bester would never have existed.

Really? I didn't know that. But Bester appearing in Mind War---was Walter Koenig not originally cast for that role?

The episodes weren't shot in the order they were broadcast.

My two cents...

- There's a definite feeling that the pace and intensity of the show has increased with this episode.

- When Sinclair wakes up in an apparently empty Babylon 5, you immediately suspect of course that K 1 & 2 have got him. But when you see the exterior shot of a lifeless looking station with no lights, it's easy to think for a moment, 'hey, what if something *else* is really going on'. Brr.

But when you see the exterior shot of a lifeless looking station with no lights, it's easy to think for a moment, 'hey, what if something *else* is really going on'. Brr.

Yes - I liked that side of it. And Sinclair in the empty station, asking the computer if the place was evacuated... there's a real possibility, in the early scenes, that this could be something happening to the station, rather than to Sinclair.

Exactly... you are left guessing for a while who is really in trouble, Sinclair or the station. :(

My favorite part of this episode is the development of Delenn's character. I don't enjoy the first part of the episode that much. I find the whole mind game business too disturbing but it definitely pans out at the end.

I did find it interesting that men were sent with a machine to find out what Sinclair knew. And exactly who did send them? Do we ever really know? Wouldn't Psi-Corps have been better? Would it have been against their rules? And I noticed on the comments at Lurker's guide that there is one disturbing question: Did Ivanova know about this? Hmmmm... what do you all think?

Perhaps Psi-Corps isn't trusted with this information...?

Perhaps! I wouldn't trust them with anything!

Well, it's clear that the Knights weren't supposed to be official, for all the hints that, yes, maybe the government was behind it. And the Psi Corps don't really have that kind of plausible deniability - all the teeps are Corps, and it's not like it's easy for rogues to get around. Plus it would pretty much have to be Psi *Cops*, and - even harder to convince people that they weren't official.

My only real comments about this episode was how beautiful Mira Furlan looked as Delenn, not to mention it was a huge, huge character developer for her. At this point, I've always felt that Sinclair and Delenn were not the almost-friends level, not particularly friends level. Not compared to the relationship that Sinclair has with Garibaldi or even Ivanova.

Sinclair was never my most favorite character in the world, and therefore this episode kind of dragged for me, but it was less so this time watching it because you're trying to piece everything together from what you know now and from what you know later on.

There was definitely a little hesitation with Delenn and the Minbari (who I assume is a fellow Grey Council member) in her quarters... which lets you know that Delenn does see Sinclair as a friend, and perhaps someone she pities and sympathizes with, and would go out of her way to make sure he really doesn't remember (but in the end, she goes to him to tell him everything... doesn't she?). So is this the start of her... disobeying the Council in that they are straying from the true purpose?

I remember not really liking this episode the first time through. Better now.

What struck me first was the two questions...Who are you? and What do you want?, that Sinclair asks Knight Two right off the bat.

The empty station was scarier this time (as imhilien said). But I think that I'm one of those people (like Sinclair apparently, and definitely like Sheridan) who get attached to places. It's a big part of who they are; it's Their Station, their baby, their commission, their responsibility. Since the first four, and especially B4, came to bad ends, I would be a trifle worried, waking up to silence and desertion. Good evocation of a nightmare.

I thought Delenn's smile at Franklin when he asked what she did during the war was a little creepy and off-putting, knowing what we know now. Not a sign of the guilt that she shows later. Her thank-you immediately before that is so sincere, too.
I remember thinking on first viewing that Delenn must be some sort of junior Satai, and not completely trusted. After Sinclair's speech about wanting to strangle every Minbari he sees, the assumption she makes that he will recognize her as his friend seemed foolish and naive, if terribly brave. The Minbari in her quarters I thought was checking up on her, making sure she was still aware of her mission, and committed to it. Maybe he was afraid she was 'going native', getting too sympathetic to the humans.
I don't think they knew more than that Sinclair had all or part of Valen's soul at this point. Not what it meant, and certainly not that he WAS Valen in a very real way. And if they did suspect it, there would be denial and disbelief.
They are being conservative and cautious and balancing shock and dislike at this point. I'm pretty sure that Delenn says they had only recently found the pictures she showed the others in WWE; but it may have been the pix of the White Star, not of the B4 station. I got the impression that study of that one thousand year ago period was a little eccentric, and most Minbari believed the Shadows were never coming back, hence their letting the Rangers lapse into a second rate, not well supported, relic of past times.

This is the first of what I like to call the "crack dream" episodes, though technically speaking I supose it's not really a dream. I really love the way these sorts of scenes are handled throughout the show, always a little bit strange, with the dark stages and the spotlights and people appearing and disappearing all over the place. The darkness and the empty Zocalo always get to me, because it's just so wrong for there to be no people around.

That's very true! It is reminiscent of Sheridan's dream, and the Inquisitor episode as well.

Sigh! The more I re-watch of season 1, the more I get upset at the thought of Sinclair being replaced by Sheridan. I know I'm probably alone in this, judging by other people's comments, but there it is.

I loved everything about this episode, and unlike David McCallum, Christopher Neame doesn't disappoint as a guest star. Yes, his mannerisms are very much those of a stage actor, but at least he has some real menace.

Edited 2009-03-16 21:59 (UTC)

I think Neame works very well - yeah, he's a little stagey, but the simulation is practically a stage play anyway, so it works. Plus, it adds an element of unreality to those scenes... and, interestingly, he does seem a lot more realistic in his acting in his scenes outside the simulation.

And I agree entirely; I really like Sinclair as a character, and his storyline.

The only place I'd come across Neame before this in a TV program was in a BBC drama called Colditz, about the prison camp. It was all very long ago, of course, but I remember him as being excellent. Very much a stage actor, though.

This episode was another that was a complete revelation to me, after being used to Star Trek. I still wasn't used to sci fi shows that actually cared about season long arcs and emotional continuity. Wonderful stuff.

And I agree entirely; I really like Sinclair as a character, and his storyline.

I'm glad someone does. I don't know what JMS's original idea was, having never read what he said, and I admire the way he managed to work so well around the cast change (I believe the producers insisted on it), but I'll always regret that we didn't get the story as JMS had envisaged it.

You guys aren't the only ones! I love Sinclair; he's one of my favourite characters. I do like Sheridan as well, though, and I tend to think that he does a better job with some of what happens later than Sinclair - I do like the way things work out, even if I miss Sinclair.

I do like Sheridan as well, though, and I tend to think that he does a better job with some of what happens later than Sinclair -

I agree, even though I like Sinclair better. I wouldn't mind Sheridan taking over as B5 commander at all if Sinclair had still been in the show. A cameo in season 2 and a two-part guest slot in season 3 just isn't enough for me, because his storyline seems so important.

On the other hand, once he was gone, I can see why priorities had to be shifted and that storyline effectively sidelined. You have to use what you have.

That said, there are some things Sheridan ended up doing - the mystical stuff with Lorien in particular - which strike me as better suited to a more introspective character like Sinclair. Ah well, never mind.

YOu sure aren't on your own.

I prefer Sinclair as a character, even though I started watch in in Season 3 and only got to see him as a commander much later (I did see the Valen thing quite early on though, and it only made very moderate sense at the time...).

I am glad though, that Sheridan awas written as a new character rather than just being an actor substitution.

I am glad though, that Sheridan awas written as a new character rather than just being an actor substitution.

Oh yes, definitely! That was something else that struck me as different at first viewing. They didn't just try to foist another actor playing the same character onto us but gave us a whole new character.

Considering the amount of rejigging JMS must have had to do to the plot, that was quite brave, I think.

Just to add my "plus one" here: I really like Sinclair and, like some others replying here, I think I prefer him to Sheridan, although Sheridan does make a better 'action man'/Kirk. But I'm sort of OK with how things worked out. Sort of. I just wish we'd had a little more of Sinclair's revised story arc.

And I am in awe at how much some people on here are able to analyse the show. I m currently on, I think my fourth Rewatch, late season three, and I feel like a little kid at the grown up table here!

I find there’s actually less to say about arc episodes like this than the more stand alone filler; most of the questions raised here were resolved by the end of the series, and there’s fewer anomalies and oddities to point out.

- The Knights seem pretty prepared and organised; one wonders who was behind them – and how many other Line veterans they’d previously targeted in this way.

- Special effects look a lot cleaner and more detailed than before – not just the Battle of the Line, but the exterior station shots as well. Don’t know if it’s just my DVD or what…

- I love the way the Battle of the Line is depicted; you only see the bits Sinclair personally saw, and you never get much of a coherent sense of the battle as a whole. It really feels like bits of dreams and half-recovered memories, not just a regular flashback.

- It always kinds of bugs me that we get shots of the exterior of the elevator and of a darkened Babylon 5. This is all in Sinclair’s mind – from whose point of view are those shots?! Yeah, it’s a pet peeve of mine when flashbacks or hallucinations show things the protagonist isn’t aware of…

- The Psi-Corps endorsed Vice-President Clark, according to the newspaper Garibaldi’s reading. Not that trivial details like that will ever prove relevant or anything… *grin*

- We get a fair bit of character information on Sinclair. He identifies himself very strongly with his job and his role as commander of Babylon 5 – that’s useful, as it provides an excuse for all the scenes in his mind to take place in the existing sets…

- Seriously, though, I like that the episode addresses things like that, and it is in line with his established characterisation. And it’s not like this is a clip show; the episode revolves around what Sinclair was doing before the series started.

- Is Garibaldi’s second in command’s complete incompetence in checking Benson’s credit account meant to be a plot point? That he’s intentionally sabotaging the search for Sinclair? He is part of Clark’s conspiracy, and the Knights have to have some sort of support from high up.

- I think it’s fun that the two times we see Sinclair facing the Grey Council have a lot of differences – the first time, they’re all already around him and the lights come on one by one, and he doesn’t see Delenn’s face. Second time, he’s remembering more and presumably his recollection is more accurate; now the Council all move into the lights simultaneously. This is an experience that’s been deliberately suppressed – it makes sense that he only remembers the broad strokes, and isn’t too sure about the details.

- One has to wonder why the second Knight thinks he needs to follow Sinclair into a crowded area to kill him, rather than just packing up his stuff and trying to sneak off the station. I can’t help but feel he’s at least partially motivated by the desire to avenge his partner…

- I am very glad that the sparkly tin-foil triangles fell out of fashion among the Minbari Grey Council. Is the other Council member meant to be another Religious Caste Satai, or is he Warrior Caste?

- I’ve said before, I really like the storyline of Sinclair slowly putting the pieces together. I really think it’s a shame Sinclair didn’t stick around long enough to see him finally uncover the whole truth. I’m also curious as to how Sinclair and Delenn’s relationship would have worked out once he found out just how much she’d been concealing from him.

- The Knights seem pretty prepared and organised; one wonders who was behind them – and how many other Line veterans they’d previously targeted in this way.

Yes, one wonders who is behind them - is it even Earth?
If not, that may be another reason the Psi Corps wasn't used.
But I do think the are targeting Sinclair specifically.

- Is Garibaldi’s second in command’s complete incompetence in checking Benson’s credit account meant to be a plot point? That he’s intentionally sabotaging the search for Sinclair? He is part of Clark’s conspiracy, and the Knights have to have some sort of support from high up.

Or maybe this is just JMS's commentary on the imperfection in the workings of police forces etc. in general...
?

- I’ve said before, I really like the storyline of Sinclair slowly putting the pieces together. I really think it’s a shame Sinclair didn’t stick around long enough to see him finally uncover the whole truth. I’m also curious as to how Sinclair and Delenn’s relationship would have worked out once he found out just how much she’d been concealing from him.

Oh me too! And it's so long since I watched the show that I've forgotten how much of that we discover in season 3. Not a lot, I think.

One of the things I like about this episode is how it introduces some of the random cyberpunk elements that seem to crop up around the edges of the B5 universe but never get full play. Between the machine here, the stuff used on Abel Horn in Season 2, the VCR in Deathwalker, and Lyta's headgear/the Shadow stuff in Season 4, there seems to be a lot more mind-and-computer mixing than one would expect from straight space opera, which is what the rest of the show basically resides in.

Some of the special effects and line readings in the dream sequence always throw me--the "electrocution" of Sinclair in the spotlight, and Knight 2's "Look! See!" at the end, mostly. It's funny, after rewatching Season 1 a bunch I've come to like most of the "annoying guest stars", but I can never quite warm up to Knight 2 or to the telepath girl in Legacies. Odd preferences.

there seems to be a lot more mind-and-computer mixing than one would expect from straight space opera

... and which of course culminates in the Shadow ships.

"And the Sky Full of Stars" discussion [spoilers]

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject