b5_revisited | "Believers" discussion [spoilers]

This remains one of the toughest episodes to watch in the whole show. I really had to psych myself up to it, after considering missing it out altogether.

Again, part of its impact has to be seen in the context of the time. The only sci fi show then worth mentioning would have been something out of the Star Trek universe, and if this had been a Trek episode, some way would have been found to save the child. This being B5, it wasn't. Instead, the parents' religious beliefs are carried to their heartbreaking and all too inevitable conclusion and Dr Franklin learns a horrible, horrible lesson to do with hubris and the fact that some things are not universal to all races.

I think this was a worthy attempt to try and show the diversity of the different species and their beliefs in the B5 universe, which the parents' attempts to gain the support of the various ambassadors highlights, as it also shows the ambassadors' ambitions and desires. It's also trying to make a point about religious fundamentalism in general and is at times heavy-handed, but I think on the whole it succeeds in setting out what it means to do, which has the result of deeply unsettling the audience.

It's not an episode I would ever choose to rewatch if I didn't feel obliged to.

Edited 2009-03-29 22:09 (UTC)

This episode is the beginning of my issues with Dr. Franklin as a sympathetic character.

That is all.

I agree. He had some points, but what a jerk. (and congratulations!)

So what are your issues with him as a sympathetic character? I'm curious.

He totally robbed that kid of a dignified death due to his own arrogance...that same arrogance that trips him up again and yet again.

And he's not even funny like House.

LOL! I spent six weeks in the hospital last year and House creeps me out totally. He's how young doctors think they should act these days.

On to Franklin. Yes, he is arrogant but he too took an oath to save lives. I can understand him too. To him, not to cure the child was as bad to him as curing the child with surgery was to the parents. Franklin makes many wrong decisions but many he makes with the right intentions and he grows all during the next years of the show. I don't think it was ever so much arrogance as it was that he felt like he could make a real difference at B5. It was almost a kind of innocence.

He made a wrong call... maybe. Maybe he didn't. There is no real dignity in death. Dead is dead.

JMS says everyone was wrong and maybe everyone was right too. He certainly didn't shy away from the controversial or the headlines in B5 and I suppose that is what makes it a good show.

House aside, I think that is preceisely what makes him a sympathetic character. He's flawed, he means well - and he gets it wrong anyway.

In the end, I think it is his tears that count, more than his arrogance earlier on.

I had pretty much the opposite reaction--the episode made me feel more sympathetic toward Franklin, as someone absolutely committed to curing his patients despite whatever traditional bunk gets in the way. What's "dignified" about your religion demanding that you die?

This was actually the episode that really made me realize: "Oh snaps. B5 isn't just any sci-fi show." Dr. Franklin could possibly have been my first favorite character fighting my way through season 1 and I did appreciate this episode from the POV of it being that it was revolved around my favorite character (at the time). The ending really did unsettle me, but that's what it's meant to do.

I'm surprised people don't find Franklin as being a sympathetic character... because I think he's one of the few that's way up there. I mean, mind you, he's also a complete manwhore, but he has great character development---or indevelopment sometimes.

The first time I saw this episode I sympathized and agreed with Franklin, although I could see all their points of view. The second time through I thought Sinclair had the right of it, and Franklin was wrong to do what he did, while the parents were misguided. This time I was pretty much on the parents' side, although I wish they had been able to step out of their culture and let their son live. That was asking a great deal of them however. The (first) dying scene was tremendously affecting, and I found myself wishing he had been able to go like that, loved, in his mother's arms, rather than having to go through that terrible rejection. I hope his last moments were peaceful, but I think he probably knew his parents didn't even feel it was him any longer.
Terrible.

The revealing interviews with each ambassador and their individual reasons for denying the parents' petition were interesting. I wondered if Kosh was referring to the general or the particular situation with his aphorism--was he saying the boy was destined to die, so it was futile to try to stop his destiny? Or was he referring to the coming storm, and that trying to prevent one death among the many to come was a waste of time?

Delenn had the best point; whose beliefs were right and real? But she was still dodging the decision; being passive as the Minbari will be later and at more important junctures. Maybe she learned something here. I would have liked to hear her and Sinclair discuss their respective decisions.

I also thought the comments about playing God from Franklin were right; we do ask doctors to play God all the time. It's hard for them to keep their humility through that. And Sinclair 'playing God' when he becomes practically a deity himself, later--there was some lovely irony. I liked that he admitted that saving Kosh was probably a mistake; they are always owning up to their mistakes. I love that.

It may just be me, but I always thought Kosh was referring to his own medical treatment in the pilot and, in his own way, trying to advise the parents that their fight was just as futile as the Vorlons' had been when he underwent treatment.

Also I have to admit I had to turn off my science brain which kept saying 'What? Don't they have a gammma knife on the station? Wouldn't ultrasound or laser surgery work? No puncture! No puncture!'

Last week's episode had Vicars(VCRs) and this one has old fashioned surgery... just things that date the show a bit though certainly not much to an old fogey like me.

They were pretty up to date and accurate in their physics and tech, like ship design. And I find it fascinating that there are still groups working on data crystal storage today. But the biology lags. Perhaps it was a secondary concern, or just harder to deal with in the context of the show.

I guess I'm still waiting for someone to make a Sector General series.

Yeah, medicine definetely wasn't one of B5's strongest points - from the med staff's rather lax ideas about hygiene to Franklin describing Londo's two hearts as a "bipulmonary system"...

I really try to forget about that one.

Ah well, more room for me to invent biology (see the pretty silver lining?)

I think it's one of the strongest episodes of the series. I love the ambiguity of it, the point of maybe they were both wrong or maybe they were both right. Initially, you would be tempted to dislike the attitude of the parents because their culture and beliefs are so different from ours. We see it as them letting their child die for no good reason, putting their religion ahead of the welfare the child. The scene that makes it work is the scene where they are comforting the dying boy before Franklin decides to operate. It becomes very, very clear how much they love their son and truly believe they are doing what is best for him. Great performances in that scene as well. Watching them reject the kid later is heartbreaking and disturbing to watch.

I don't recall ever seeing this before, so this is either an ep I was advised to skip on first viewing, or I decided to. It's a little unbalanced between the Franklin plot and the almost nonexistent subplot (though that one does give Ivanova some nice moments) but overall I liked it. On this second watch through the series, I'm wondering if Franklin might be my favorite character overall (well, after Garibaldi, anyway). I just adore Richard Biggs' work (and watching this knowing that he would pass away prematurely made it harder to watch). The dilemma over what to do with the child was much more balanced than I expected, and there kept being twists that I didn't anticipate.

I particularly liked Franklin's argument with Maya early on, because I didn't expect him to criticize her initial statements to the parents, and then I didn't expect his reasons for doing so. The ep then went on to challenge the beliefs he had originally stated -- and it became evident Franklin was not used to not getting his way, which I think explained a lot of his behavior. Above all, it was clear had not given a second's thought to what would happen after the surgery -- except that he expected to be thanked. There were a lot of debates in this ep that felt like real debates, not stacked decks, and that was interesting and refreshing. I expectd this to be a much more heavy-handed and clear cut allegory for real- life medical issues, but instead it felt like it was dealing with something genuinely alien.

I don't remember whether I advised you to skip it, but if so, it wasn't because I don't appreciate it! Because yes, it's good, and it remains one of the best Franklin-centric episodes, with, as you say, genuine arguments.

Honestly, I might have skipped it myself because of the description of the subject matter. I would have assumed it was an 'issue' episode and I didn't really know enough to trust B5's handling of religion at that point. Anyway, I can see that it doesn't do that much to advance the main arc, but it's an interesting story to look back on now.

This episode has one of my favorite bits of dialogue from the first season:

"Who asked you to play God?"
"Every damn patient who comes through that door, that's who! People come to doctors because they want us to be gods. They want us to make it better--or make it not so. They want to be healed and they come to me when their prayers aren't enough. Well, if I have to take the responsibility, then I claim the authority too. I did good. And we both know it. And no one is going to take that away."

Another episode by an old Star Trek scribe, David Gerrold this time, who wrote one of the most light hearted and popular TOS episodes, The Trouble with Tribbles. Believers is, err, different, though as others have observed, it both very much resembles an ST episode in its set-up and doesn't in its ending.

(This however only applies to the original series and TNG. I have to point out that DS9 did something similar, repeatedly - i.e. awful dilemmas where there was no happy solution despite everyone trying.)

Looking back on the show in its entirety, this might still be the defining Franklin episode. While I've always liked Franklin, I don't think JMS always knew what to do with him (i.e. he had to have a doctor in the ensemble because every space show does, but didn't always have something for Franklin to do in the grand scheme of things), and the "to stim or not to stim" plot line from s3 wasn't always that successful. On the other hand, things like the resistance on Mars storyline or all of Franklin's interactions with Garibaldi through the later seasons, or his scene with Bester in The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father I really appreciated.

Anyway, back to Believers. As others have observed, this episode doesn't present "fake" arguments where you know we're supposed to see one side entirely in the wrong anyway. The rejection scene remains deeply unsettling in a "yes, that would happen" way to me when rewatching, and the ending is as wrenching as ever.

One thing: when Delenn makes her "whose beliefs are right or wrong?" point she IS being something of a hypocrite, because in Soul Hunter, her horror at the very existence of Soul Hunters (as opposed to that particular one) was based on her belief that souls are eternal and get reborn, and are kept prisoner, whereas the Soul Hunters of course believe themselves to save those same souls. I would say in this instance Delenn is quite firmly convinced her own beliefs were an absolute. (Later, in Legacies, we'll get another example, since Delenn has no greater claim to know what Bramner would have wanted than Neroon does.)

I find that Believers doesn't really work on rewatching. It's very definitely a statement of purpose in taking a ripped-from-the-headlines dilemma-of-the-week ST:TNG episode and not giving it a pat ending acceptable to contemporary US liberals, but it's still a ripped-from-the-headlines dilemma-of-the-week ST:TNG episode.

I was reminded of ER a bit, too.
Both in the way that it is a very much self-contained case of the week, and also in the ending, which they might have dared where Trek wouldn't.

I only just now realised that the actor who plays Shon's mother, was also the EA president in In the Beginning. She did really good job there as well.

Edited 2009-03-30 15:53 (UTC)

That's really interesting. I thought that was some of the best guest actor acting in the series (both times!)

One of the better standalone episodes; I do find Franklin very hard to sympathise with, though. Which is, admittedly, a sign the episode works fairly well when you can sympathise with perspectives other than ‘save the kid’s life!’…

- Very first scene, Franklin’s being pretty damn arrogant and showing no respect for the parent’s beliefs. I find it very hard to have a great deal of sympathy for him; sure, he’s just trying to reassure the kid, but he’s also effectively forcing the kid to chose between listening to him and listening to his parents.

- And then a few moments later, he grabs the mother by the arm as she goes to leave. That’s incredibly rude, and culturally inappropriate in a lot of societies. He doesn’t know anything about Shon’s culture or what the issues with surgery are, but he’s already placed himself in a confrontational position against the parents.

- Five minutes later, he criticizes the other doctor for ‘insulting the patient’s beliefs’. Well, good to see he’s at least aware that’s a bad thing; if only he could see it in himself. We don’t exactly see him trying to work with the family’s beliefs in the rest of the episode.

- And then there’s the Gloppit Egg. Because the ‘kid needs a friend’. Never mind that his parents are presumably going to be there for him most of the time – even if their kid wasn’t sick, I can’t see them leaving him alone to check out B5’s night life. It also seems somewhat in bad taste to give the kid a toy egg to talk to when his people worship ‘The Great Egg’…

- Shon’s people appear to be matriarchal; Sinclair assumes if they had an ambassador it’s be a woman, and Shon’s mother several times speaks on behalf of his father.

- Man, the Zocalo has tiny tables – Sinclair’s meal barely fits.

- “Now I know how Pontius Pilate must have felt.” Personally, I’ve always seen Pilate to be acting more along the lines of the ambassadors than Sinclair – not genuinely trying to work out the best course of action so much as trying desperately to work out what choice wouldn’t end up casting blame on him.

- Once Sinclair talks to Shon, I rather feel the debate is over. It’s tragic that a child is going to die, sure – but if the patient refuses treatment, there’s nothing that can be done. Dr. Franklin should have a better grasp of ethics than to force surgery on an unwilling patient, even if it’s life-saving. The parents, the religion – they don’t come into it anymore. I really wish that point had been emphasised more.

- The Ivanova/Raiders storyline seems incredibly tacked-on; considering we don’t even get to see how she escaped, I wonder why it was included at all. I guess the idea was to build up the raiders a bit so their destruction in “Signs and Portents” would seem like a big deal – but all this story did was indicate that a single Starfury can take out an entire squadron of raider fighters. The time, I feel, could have been better spent – maybe with a scene where Franklin tries to get more information from Shon’s homeworld, see if there’s a loophole in their dogma.

It also seems somewhat in bad taste to give the kid a toy egg to talk to when his people worship ‘The Great Egg’

I don't think so. They also hatch from eggs. Human children play with baby dolls. So the basic idea was not that bad.
It may even Franklin's attempt to be culturally aware, as is the comment to his colleague. One of his problems is that he doesn't see how he's failing (but we do).

Still - I also like the fact that the kid isn't fooled by the egg :-)

Personally, I’ve always seen Pilate to be acting more along the lines of the ambassadors than Sinclair.

I agree, Sinclair isn't like Pilate, but I bet he's the only one the parents appoach who has this thought. It is part of how aware he is of his responsibility.

About the Ivanova/Raider storyline: The little scene with the child at the end suggests that it was originally conceived as counterpoint plot, except that all of that was lost to the cutting room floor.

It may have been better excised completely, but as was said before it may be that the raiders needed to appear before their demise.

Also, it has some good Ivanova lines :-)

I think it's one of the hardest episodes to watch. The one that makes us understand how alien people form elsewhere are. It screams "We're different!" The first time throgh i agreed with Franklin( and i think if you don't you're not really that human :) ) But the next time... when i've already rewatched the whole B5 i felt... Doc was right in his way and the parents of the boy were as tight in theirs. And the child in question wanted to lve--you can see it in his eyes... but Sinclair beeing Synclair probably made the only right decision there.

Throughout the episode I just wanted to smack Dr. Franklin. How could such an intelligent, well-traveled and thoughtful person be so dogmatic about this issue? Surely before in his career he’s had to deal with situations where length of life was in conflict with quality of life: risky procedures that the patient or their families declined, extreme measures for dying patients, that kind of thing? His approach here implied a kind of “we can fix everything with no consequences” kind of medicine more like what they have in Star Trek than what you see later in B5, imo.

That said, it was nice to have Dr. Franklin have his foibles and blind spots, as far as character development goes. And the situation did illustrate nicely the unique position that the station is in. One wonders how doubtful the aliens were when this project was announced: oh, sure, it’ll be a neutral meeting place, it *just so happens* that the humans will be running it all, there’s no conflict there.

As Howard Zinn said, you can’t be neutral on a moving train, and I think Sinclair understands this. Appropriately, he’s not trying to be neutral - he’s trying to be fair-minded. Even doing nothing is making an ethical choice, as the Minbari response showed.

"Believers" discussion [spoilers]

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