"Signs and Portents" discussion [spoilers]

[ruuger]

Sorry for the delay - my internet connection was down last night.

This is the discussion post for the episode 1X13, "Signs and Portents". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Extra reading:

The article for "Signs and Portents" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

THE big arc episode of the season, and it still holds up against the later season big arc episodes very well. I unfailingly get the shivers when Londo finally answers Morden's question. The best thing is that when first watching, you already have an idea Morden could be up to no good (people who smilingly offer to fulfill wishes never are), but if you are unspoiled, you can assume he's simply a trickster character, and at the end whoever answers him will have learned a lesson, etc. Then G'Kar does give him an answer - and a pretty bloodthirsty one at that (I'll get to this in a moment) - and Morden isn't content with the answer because evidently, just wiping out Centauri isn't enough. That, more than the abortive Kosh and Delenn encounters, made me take him very seriously and deduce that this was no one-shot trickster up to some mischief.

Londo's reply: another case of character building is that this doesn't come out of nowhere. We've seen Londo talk ruefully about the grand old days of the Republic before. We've seen him deeply resent the "tourist attraction/joke" status he thinks Centauris have today. Back in the season opener, after G'Kar racked up bad karma with the attack on Ragesh III and Londo's nephew presented on camera, we've seen him wanting to kill G'Kar in a more than metaphorical sense. And yet I don't think a first time audience realized how deep this all goes, and how serious it is for him, until his final outburst towards Morden.

Incidentally, answering Morden isn't what I see as Londo's first step towards damning himself; that comes later in season 2 when he asks Morden for help for the second time, despite then fully knowing just what the "associates" are capable of and what the long term result of the request will be. On the other hand, this episode contains what I think of as three lucky breaks G'Kar got from fate. Because if Londo hadn't replied, then Morden would have had no choice but to go with G'Kar, and G'Kar, at this point of his life and before the various experiences which change him, would have accepted that help to wipe out the Centauri. (G'Kar's other two lucky breaks, imo, were a)in Coming of Shadows - Turhan's heart attack, because if Turhan would not have had said heart attack, then G'Kar would have assassinated him, and then this, not Londo's later request to Morden, would have started the second Narn/Centauri war; and b) in Dust to Dust, Kosh intervening in his mind attack on Londo, thereby triggering an crucial epiphany for G'Kar.)

Ed Wasser as Morden: still one of the best villain performances in the genre.

Delenn's reaction to Morden reminds me of her reaction in Objects at Rest when confronted with the urn containing a mini Keeper and with Londo-under-Keeper-influence.

Kosh's "they are not for you": reminds me of later statements like "they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn) and the fact the Vorlons have already written of the Centauri (and the Narn) as evolutionary dead ends and are betting on the humans and the Minbari. The irony is, of course, that in fact the Shadows have already gotten to the humans via Clark at this point, not to mention that the existence of Morden - a human - as the Shadows' emissary should tip Kosh off that the whole business with the Icarus might not have ended with all the crew killed after all.

The vision of B5 being destroyed with one shuttle leaving is, err, somewhat misleading, when compared to the actual destruction of the station...

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I thought G'Kar's admitting he didn't know what he would do after crushing the Centauri showed he still had some potential to turn away from that path; and that was what dissatisfied Morden. Londo has no qualifiers to his answer. G'Kar's 'I don't know' also reminded me of Delenn's doubts as expressed to the Inquisitor.

Oddly, and probably since on my first viewing I saw things out of order and missed a lot, I thought Delenn's glowing triangle was some sort of protection from the Vorlon, a bad guy detector of some kind. Sort of like Glinda's kiss on Dorothy's forehead. Which made the later reaction to Londo and the urn more explicable.

Kosh's statement 'they are not for you' (again, at the first viewing) I thought meant the people on the station; that all the ambassadors would be involved (as they were, one way or another) in what was coming. The human exceptionalism aspects of the show always bother me.

"The vision of B5 being destroyed with one shuttle leaving..."

This time through that scene seemed to foretell the 'original' ending; with Sinclair and Delenn escaping the destruction of the station at the last minute with David.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

IMO, G'Kar and Londo both had the potential for that path, and to turn away; they weren't inherently better or worse than each other, but they made different choices, from which their paths diverged (though ultimately met again). (I.e. later season 2 and 3 G'Kar is definitely a better man than Londo, but he is so because of the choices he made, not because he was always destined to be.) Definitely agreed that Londo's lack of qualifiers and more universal "great empire" request (instead of a specific "I want the Narn defeated" request) made him more appealing to Morden.

Human exceptionalism: I don't think the show as such has it, but the Vorlons definitely have a worthy/unworthy standart to which they hold the younger races. (These are the people who think nothing of destroying entire planets, no matter the bystanders, if that means dealing a blow to their enemies, after all.)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"Human exceptionalism: I don't think the show as such has it.."

I see it much more in the fandom than the show proper I must admit.

Londo and G'Kar's paths are fascinating, and I am looking forward to following it again with company this time. I still think this is the first hint that G'Kar can think beyond what he wants to what happens next. Londo seems to feel that what he wants is an end in and of itself. Also neither wants it for themselves, but for their people...isn't the capacity for self-sacrifice one of the principles of sentient life?

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

...answering Morden isn't what I see as Londo's first step towards damning himself; that comes later in season 2 when he asks Morden for help for the second time...

I have to say I disagree on this. Given the circumstances and what he knew he must have believed implicitly that war with the Narn was coming. At that point it would seem a choice between starting it now, or waiting until the Narn had an even larger fleet and were an even greater threat. (Unless you mean the second time in season 2, when he basically supports the wholesale destruction of the Narn homeworld, which is the point at which I consider him to cross the line)

I think at this point the 'they are not for you' is an attempt to get the Shadows away from the B5 project as a whole. The idea of working out differences peacefully is very much part of the Vorlon argument (as contrasting with Vorlon practice as seen in season 4), and as such he's trying to prevent the Shadows from corrupting it. In fact, it's this scene, more than any of the others, that makes you take Morden seriously. So far the Vorlon has been untouchable, but here you have a guy who obviously relishes the confrontation and then you hear he damages Kosh's encounter suit.

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I meant the time in The Coming of Shadows - that, to me, is Londo's crossing the line moment. The Narn homeworld obviously is another big step, but in Coming of Shadows he starts a war, and while, yes, we know the Narns are itching for one as well, this doesn't excuse Londo taking that step. The text itself is pretty explicit about this, too, given the Vir-Londo dialogue ("you don't know what you're doing!" "Yes, I do. Yes, I do" - as opposed to Chrysalis, when he didn't), and the fact that this is when Londo sees the Shadow ships over Centauri Prime for the first time in his vision. (We know he has seen his death before - the mutual strangling - but he had not seen the much earlier set vision of the Shadows over Centauri Prime, which I think is due to the fact that only after he made the request to Morden - and helped bringing Cartagia on the throne - did the Shadows on Centauri Prime become an inevitability.)

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

Absolutely. I think Kosh the individual later comes to care about G'Kar enough to intervene in Dust To Dust, but the Vorlons in general have written off both Centauri and Narn alike.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

Well, from that point the Centauri are aware of his 'allies' and it is likely that when he pulls back from using the Shadows another will come forward. So it's pretty likely that Centauri Prime is doomed to have Shadows on it, but Londo's exact part in that is still to be decided.

I've always felt that the Coming of Shadows decision was understandable, albeit mistaken in it's assumptions. Of course, Londo himself gets treated to a (bitter) taste of what might have been when G'Kar buys him a drink before word of the attack gets out. Londo's damnation comes when he continues to use the Shadows despite past mistakes and with full knowledge of what he's unleashing on the Narn as a direct result of his actions. Up to then he's still redeemable, except (probably) in Vorlon eyes.