"Signs and Portents" discussion [spoilers]

[ruuger]

Sorry for the delay - my internet connection was down last night.

This is the discussion post for the episode 1X13, "Signs and Portents". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Extra reading:

The article for "Signs and Portents" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

...answering Morden isn't what I see as Londo's first step towards damning himself; that comes later in season 2 when he asks Morden for help for the second time...

I have to say I disagree on this. Given the circumstances and what he knew he must have believed implicitly that war with the Narn was coming. At that point it would seem a choice between starting it now, or waiting until the Narn had an even larger fleet and were an even greater threat. (Unless you mean the second time in season 2, when he basically supports the wholesale destruction of the Narn homeworld, which is the point at which I consider him to cross the line)

I think at this point the 'they are not for you' is an attempt to get the Shadows away from the B5 project as a whole. The idea of working out differences peacefully is very much part of the Vorlon argument (as contrasting with Vorlon practice as seen in season 4), and as such he's trying to prevent the Shadows from corrupting it. In fact, it's this scene, more than any of the others, that makes you take Morden seriously. So far the Vorlon has been untouchable, but here you have a guy who obviously relishes the confrontation and then you hear he damages Kosh's encounter suit.

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I meant the time in The Coming of Shadows - that, to me, is Londo's crossing the line moment. The Narn homeworld obviously is another big step, but in Coming of Shadows he starts a war, and while, yes, we know the Narns are itching for one as well, this doesn't excuse Londo taking that step. The text itself is pretty explicit about this, too, given the Vir-Londo dialogue ("you don't know what you're doing!" "Yes, I do. Yes, I do" - as opposed to Chrysalis, when he didn't), and the fact that this is when Londo sees the Shadow ships over Centauri Prime for the first time in his vision. (We know he has seen his death before - the mutual strangling - but he had not seen the much earlier set vision of the Shadows over Centauri Prime, which I think is due to the fact that only after he made the request to Morden - and helped bringing Cartagia on the throne - did the Shadows on Centauri Prime become an inevitability.)

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

Absolutely. I think Kosh the individual later comes to care about G'Kar enough to intervene in Dust To Dust, but the Vorlons in general have written off both Centauri and Narn alike.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

Well, from that point the Centauri are aware of his 'allies' and it is likely that when he pulls back from using the Shadows another will come forward. So it's pretty likely that Centauri Prime is doomed to have Shadows on it, but Londo's exact part in that is still to be decided.

I've always felt that the Coming of Shadows decision was understandable, albeit mistaken in it's assumptions. Of course, Londo himself gets treated to a (bitter) taste of what might have been when G'Kar buys him a drink before word of the attack gets out. Londo's damnation comes when he continues to use the Shadows despite past mistakes and with full knowledge of what he's unleashing on the Narn as a direct result of his actions. Up to then he's still redeemable, except (probably) in Vorlon eyes.