b5_revisited | "Signs and Portents" discussion [spoilers]

THE big arc episode of the season, and it still holds up against the later season big arc episodes very well. I unfailingly get the shivers when Londo finally answers Morden's question. The best thing is that when first watching, you already have an idea Morden could be up to no good (people who smilingly offer to fulfill wishes never are), but if you are unspoiled, you can assume he's simply a trickster character, and at the end whoever answers him will have learned a lesson, etc. Then G'Kar does give him an answer - and a pretty bloodthirsty one at that (I'll get to this in a moment) - and Morden isn't content with the answer because evidently, just wiping out Centauri isn't enough. That, more than the abortive Kosh and Delenn encounters, made me take him very seriously and deduce that this was no one-shot trickster up to some mischief.

Londo's reply: another case of character building is that this doesn't come out of nowhere. We've seen Londo talk ruefully about the grand old days of the Republic before. We've seen him deeply resent the "tourist attraction/joke" status he thinks Centauris have today. Back in the season opener, after G'Kar racked up bad karma with the attack on Ragesh III and Londo's nephew presented on camera, we've seen him wanting to kill G'Kar in a more than metaphorical sense. And yet I don't think a first time audience realized how deep this all goes, and how serious it is for him, until his final outburst towards Morden.

Incidentally, answering Morden isn't what I see as Londo's first step towards damning himself; that comes later in season 2 when he asks Morden for help for the second time, despite then fully knowing just what the "associates" are capable of and what the long term result of the request will be. On the other hand, this episode contains what I think of as three lucky breaks G'Kar got from fate. Because if Londo hadn't replied, then Morden would have had no choice but to go with G'Kar, and G'Kar, at this point of his life and before the various experiences which change him, would have accepted that help to wipe out the Centauri. (G'Kar's other two lucky breaks, imo, were a)in Coming of Shadows - Turhan's heart attack, because if Turhan would not have had said heart attack, then G'Kar would have assassinated him, and then this, not Londo's later request to Morden, would have started the second Narn/Centauri war; and b) in Dust to Dust, Kosh intervening in his mind attack on Londo, thereby triggering an crucial epiphany for G'Kar.)

Ed Wasser as Morden: still one of the best villain performances in the genre.

Delenn's reaction to Morden reminds me of her reaction in Objects at Rest when confronted with the urn containing a mini Keeper and with Londo-under-Keeper-influence.

Kosh's "they are not for you": reminds me of later statements like "they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn) and the fact the Vorlons have already written of the Centauri (and the Narn) as evolutionary dead ends and are betting on the humans and the Minbari. The irony is, of course, that in fact the Shadows have already gotten to the humans via Clark at this point, not to mention that the existence of Morden - a human - as the Shadows' emissary should tip Kosh off that the whole business with the Icarus might not have ended with all the crew killed after all.

The vision of B5 being destroyed with one shuttle leaving is, err, somewhat misleading, when compared to the actual destruction of the station...

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I thought G'Kar's admitting he didn't know what he would do after crushing the Centauri showed he still had some potential to turn away from that path; and that was what dissatisfied Morden. Londo has no qualifiers to his answer. G'Kar's 'I don't know' also reminded me of Delenn's doubts as expressed to the Inquisitor.

Oddly, and probably since on my first viewing I saw things out of order and missed a lot, I thought Delenn's glowing triangle was some sort of protection from the Vorlon, a bad guy detector of some kind. Sort of like Glinda's kiss on Dorothy's forehead. Which made the later reaction to Londo and the urn more explicable.

Kosh's statement 'they are not for you' (again, at the first viewing) I thought meant the people on the station; that all the ambassadors would be involved (as they were, one way or another) in what was coming. The human exceptionalism aspects of the show always bother me.

"The vision of B5 being destroyed with one shuttle leaving..."

This time through that scene seemed to foretell the 'original' ending; with Sinclair and Delenn escaping the destruction of the station at the last minute with David.

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IMO, G'Kar and Londo both had the potential for that path, and to turn away; they weren't inherently better or worse than each other, but they made different choices, from which their paths diverged (though ultimately met again). (I.e. later season 2 and 3 G'Kar is definitely a better man than Londo, but he is so because of the choices he made, not because he was always destined to be.) Definitely agreed that Londo's lack of qualifiers and more universal "great empire" request (instead of a specific "I want the Narn defeated" request) made him more appealing to Morden.

Human exceptionalism: I don't think the show as such has it, but the Vorlons definitely have a worthy/unworthy standart to which they hold the younger races. (These are the people who think nothing of destroying entire planets, no matter the bystanders, if that means dealing a blow to their enemies, after all.)

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"Human exceptionalism: I don't think the show as such has it.."

I see it much more in the fandom than the show proper I must admit.

Londo and G'Kar's paths are fascinating, and I am looking forward to following it again with company this time. I still think this is the first hint that G'Kar can think beyond what he wants to what happens next. Londo seems to feel that what he wants is an end in and of itself. Also neither wants it for themselves, but for their people...isn't the capacity for self-sacrifice one of the principles of sentient life?

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kathrid.livejournal.com

...answering Morden isn't what I see as Londo's first step towards damning himself; that comes later in season 2 when he asks Morden for help for the second time...

I have to say I disagree on this. Given the circumstances and what he knew he must have believed implicitly that war with the Narn was coming. At that point it would seem a choice between starting it now, or waiting until the Narn had an even larger fleet and were an even greater threat. (Unless you mean the second time in season 2, when he basically supports the wholesale destruction of the Narn homeworld, which is the point at which I consider him to cross the line)

I think at this point the 'they are not for you' is an attempt to get the Shadows away from the B5 project as a whole. The idea of working out differences peacefully is very much part of the Vorlon argument (as contrasting with Vorlon practice as seen in season 4), and as such he's trying to prevent the Shadows from corrupting it. In fact, it's this scene, more than any of the others, that makes you take Morden seriously. So far the Vorlon has been untouchable, but here you have a guy who obviously relishes the confrontation and then you hear he damages Kosh's encounter suit.

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

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I meant the time in The Coming of Shadows - that, to me, is Londo's crossing the line moment. The Narn homeworld obviously is another big step, but in Coming of Shadows he starts a war, and while, yes, we know the Narns are itching for one as well, this doesn't excuse Londo taking that step. The text itself is pretty explicit about this, too, given the Vir-Londo dialogue ("you don't know what you're doing!" "Yes, I do. Yes, I do" - as opposed to Chrysalis, when he didn't), and the fact that this is when Londo sees the Shadow ships over Centauri Prime for the first time in his vision. (We know he has seen his death before - the mutual strangling - but he had not seen the much earlier set vision of the Shadows over Centauri Prime, which I think is due to the fact that only after he made the request to Morden - and helped bringing Cartagia on the throne - did the Shadows on Centauri Prime become an inevitability.)

"they are a dead people" (re: the Centauri and the Narn)

Finally, some one who gets this the same way I do. Everyone always uses that quote specifically for the Centauri. I always thought the point of that quote was that from the Vorlon perspective both races were doomed, with little difference between them (thus hinting at the war to come being based on ideology, not species).

Absolutely. I think Kosh the individual later comes to care about G'Kar enough to intervene in Dust To Dust, but the Vorlons in general have written off both Centauri and Narn alike.

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kathrid.livejournal.com

Well, from that point the Centauri are aware of his 'allies' and it is likely that when he pulls back from using the Shadows another will come forward. So it's pretty likely that Centauri Prime is doomed to have Shadows on it, but Londo's exact part in that is still to be decided.

I've always felt that the Coming of Shadows decision was understandable, albeit mistaken in it's assumptions. Of course, Londo himself gets treated to a (bitter) taste of what might have been when G'Kar buys him a drink before word of the attack gets out. Londo's damnation comes when he continues to use the Shadows despite past mistakes and with full knowledge of what he's unleashing on the Narn as a direct result of his actions. Up to then he's still redeemable, except (probably) in Vorlon eyes.

From:

beccastareyes

One thing that I noticed this time was how Morden was able to get G'Kar and Londo to give answers that were decidedly non-trivial. Some of that was because of timing -- G'Kar had his fight with Londo*, and Londo was dealing with Kiro and the realization that his Republic isn't what he thought it should be. But, if you want real answers -- not flippant responses or what we think it's socially acceptable to tell a weird alien (to the ambasssadros' POV) guy -- to a pretty unusual question**, it takes a special person to get that.

(I like the comment from JMS in the Lurker's Guide about the florist and the actor playing Morden abut how darn creepy the approach is.)

* Not that I don't think "G'Kar fights with Londo' isn't a regular thing, but sometimes they end better for G'Kar.

** Shouldn't be unusual, but it's just so open-ended.

I remember in previous viewings, I always got the impression that Kosh drove Morden off before he spoke to Sinclair -- probably a combination of the 'they are not for you' scene and the subconscious note that Morden or his handlers (deliberately?) were working when Kosh was out for a trip. Interesting to note that that wasn't the plan. (Would have liked to know Sinclair's response. Or Delenn's, if she hadn't had the 'WTFBadNews' reaction. Somehow, I doubt either would give as good as response as Londo did.)

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Or Delenn's, if she hadn't had the 'WTFBadNews' reaction.

deborah_judge once pointed out that Lennier in season 5 asks her "what do you want?" and that she then doesn't really answer, either.

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widsidh.livejournal.com

A great one for firsts - first encounters with Morden, first view (and I think even naming) of the Shadows, first view of the recurring image of the destruction of the station, and arguably the first fully arc-driven episode, which would be difficult to see on its own.

I still regret that I only saw season 1 after saeson3 (or at least well into it, can't remember in detail). But even so, the sudden appearance of the Shadow ship makes me go cold.

Again, the abyss between Londo and G'KAr is driven home, so much not forshadowing what is to come.

BTW; it seems late in the day to have so few comments: where are everyone else's?
Lurkers awake! :-)

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alexcat.livejournal.com

I love this episode because it finally begins to get into the meat of the show.

Morden doesn't seem so dark and harmful at first, but as is mentioned in the Lurker's Guide, he surely reminded me of Rod Serling! He began to give me the creeps even before I knew what he was doing though. One of my favorite parts was the bit where the light goes out when Morden is talking to Kosh and he stands completely in shadow for a moment...a not so subtle sign of things to come.

The raiders did seem a plot device to get us to this point. Or were they and Lord Kiro already being mmoved by the shadows? Since the raider ship was blown up, was that all of them? I don't think we see them again, do we? A need for revenge from them might have made a nice subplot too.

For us watching, Delenn certainly seemed to over react to Morden though honestly, we have not seen alot of her yet and do not know her as well as we will. She reminded me of a cat hissing actually.

Bringing Garibaldi in to investigate Sinclair's past is interesting too... it is a chance to let us, the audience, in on what happened after the war and to answer our question as to why such a low ranking officer who is still a bit under suspicion gets what I would think would be a plum of an assignment. Evidently it answers the question for Sinclair too.

On a lighter note, Lord Kiro's hair was wonderful! It stuck up in such an extreme manner, making Londo's look dignified in comparison. I always thought the Centauri looked liked Napoleonic vampires with bad hair anyway. Londo's clothing even looks like Napoleon's.

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kathrid.livejournal.com

The raiders did seem a plot device to get us to this point. Or were they and Lord Kiro already being mmoved by the shadows? Since the raider ship was blown up, was that all of them? I don't think we see them again, do we?

At this point I think Morden & Co. just take advantage of events with the raiders to impress Londo. The rest of that arc is about increasing Centauri dissatisfaction with the way the Republic is going and the lengths some nobles are prepared to go to (and the risks they'll take) to change it.

As far as the raiders go, Garibaldi mentions that they'll take a while to buy fighters and recruit pilots, and with their carrier gone, and their prize too, they're out of business permanently.

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Not a perfect episode, but a very good one. Its main weakness is the raider storyline; the raiders were never portrayed as particularly powerful or interesting, and so having a decent chunk of the episode be devoted to them feels like a waste of time. It’s a nice looking battle sequence, but Sinclair’s tactics almost feel like overkill, considering how weak the raider ships seem to be. A lot of the exposition about jump-gates and jump-points felt rather clunky too…

Another problem is the thread of Babylon 5’s prophesied destruction, one of the few plot points that was very clearly a victim of the eventual changes in the storyline – the resolution in “War Without End” never felt particular satisfying, and has massive plot holes. Most of the time, the show does a pretty good job of clearing up abandoned plot threads in a satisfying fashion, but this one really sticks out on re-watching.

It occurs to me one of the differences between G’kar and Londo’s answers isn’t just that G’kar’s goals are finite – it’s that G’kar’s heart isn’t entirely in it. He’s big on loud rhetoric and speeches – and we’ve already heard this sort of thing from him, in “Midnight on the Firing Line”, with his bit about carving Centauri bones into flutes. But when pressed further, he says that “As long as my homeworld’s safety is guaranteed…”, not, interestingly “As long as the Centauri are destroyed…”. There’s two possibilities – either he sees the extermination of the Centauri as necessary for Narn security… or, and I think more likely, that a lot of what he’s saying is just rhetoric, deliberately over the top, and he knows it. He talks about wanting justice – a lot of it is just as likely to be an effort to remind others of just what the Narn suffered under Centauri rule as literal desires to annihilate the Centauri.

It also occurs to me that G’kar’s speech is framed in terms of justice and protecting his homeworld, while Londo’s desires are fundamentally selfish; his self-image and pride are tied to the success of the Centauri Republic.

Not, admittedly, that I think G’kar would have done any better if presented with the power that the Shadow’s offered Londo. But I do think there were reasons beyond the explicit limits of G’kar’s desires that led Morden to chose Londo instead.

Other notes:

- I rather like how… tacky the Eye is. It looks like – well, like the sort of ultra-gaudy sort of thing the ruler of a new empire would commission to demonstrate his power and wealth. Emperors aren’t exactly known for their taste or subtlety…

- One wonders why Morden thought it was even worth the effort of arranging an audience with Delenn. I guess as long as he was on the station, he thought he might give it a shot.

- So, what was the deal meant to be with the silver triangle on Delenn’s head? I always thought it one of the silliest looking ideas in the show.

- My mum watched the series with me the last time I rewatched it, a few years back. She somehow interpreted Kosh’s “Leave this place, they are not for you” statement as an instruction, not a demand… it wasn’t until “In the Shadow of Z’ha’dum” that she realised Morden wasn’t working with the Vorlons… Not sure what she thought damaged Kosh’s encounter suit…

- Of course, considering the Vorlons and Shadows are meant to have a truce at this point, I guess that’s still an open question. I like to imagine it involved phrases like “I’m going to keep walking and just waving my pseudopods around, and if you get hit, it’s your own fault” “Oh yeah, well I’m just going to keep walking forward waving my forelimbs around, and if you get hit, it’s your own fault!”

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zefire2.livejournal.com

Another problem is the thread of Babylon 5’s prophesied destruction, one of the few plot points that was very clearly a victim of the eventual changes in the storyline – the resolution in “War Without End” never felt particular satisfying, and has massive plot holes. Most of the time, the show does a pretty good job of clearing up abandoned plot threads in a satisfying fashion, but this one really sticks out on re-watching.

I've always thought the opposite really. We see what is essentially one of the very last scenes in the show early on, but it isn't exactly what we think it is.
I read the bit about the original ending, but the way it played out really fits togeather far better then what was billed to the network; I wonder how much was just sales pitch & spin off opportunities to get the show going.

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Well, "Babylon Squared" also alludes to Babylon 5 being destroyed in the future (Sinclair's flash-forward to Garibaldi making a last stand) - I think there was a clear intention during the first season that B5 would be destroyed in combat during the run of the show.

And, of course, "War Without End" goes out of its way to explain those references, something I don't think would have happened if Ladira's vision had always been intended to refer to "Sleeping In Light".

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shapinglight

I'm wondering how the fact that I haven't rewatched the show since first airing until now is impacting on my viewing. I've forgotten so much that happens later that whether or not certain storylines are eventually fulfilled passes me by.

As such, this episode strikes me as near-perfect - a culmination of so much that's already been set up in the early part of the season, with the rivaly between G'Kar and Londo, which has at times been played for comedy and is here seen for the first time in all its ugliness (well, we see some of its ugliness in previous episodes too, but here we see the bitterness and hatred that motivates G'Kar -and no wonder - given full expression when he answers Morden's question. Likewise, we see Londo's nostalgia for olden days - better days- and weary cynicism also given voice in a way that is perfect for Morden's purpose. Morden's little smile says it all.

Morden is a great villain, and you know he's a villain right from the start, because he's so normal and plausible. You wouldn't look twice at him in the street, and yet Delenn fears him and Kosh retires from an encounter with him bruised. That makes it pretty sure the audience will never, ever forget him.

The raider subplot, that isn't, IMO, really a subplot works beautifully, only falling down because the actor playing the chief raider is a bit rubbish, and the actress playing Lady Ladira is a bit OTT. That said, I appreciate the further enriching of Centauri culture that her character gives. Somehow, the fact that Ladira is Lord Jiro's aunt rather than his mother, gives me a happy. It's the extended family thing.

A great, great episode. I remember when I first saw the series that it was after seeing this one I was well and truly hooked.

Edited Date: 2009-04-20 08:57 pm (UTC)

From:

beatrice_otter

I know what you're talking about, with the raider guy and Lady Ladira. (Well, the dialogue for both of them is slightly OTT and corny, but their acting doesn't help.) I've always wondered why Babylon 5 could get such consistently great actors for the major roles--and such consistently bad actors for the episode guest stars.

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shapinglight

It is odd, though they aren't always bad. I rewatched Grail on Monday and though I don't care much for David Warner's character, he's a decent actor.

Amusingly, I saw the actor who played the Ombuds playing Bishop Brennan in an episode of Fathter Ted later the same day.

From:

likeadeuce.livejournal.com

Apologies because I'm not very good at following all this big arc-y stuff, but. . .Morden never asks the humans what they want, does he? Is it ever explained why that is? Or am I forgetting something?

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Morden presumably asked Clark the question at some point off-screen. Plus, presumably the Shadows already asked the crew of the Icarus what they wanted, and feel they've already got a decent sample of what humans want...

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likeadeuce.livejournal.com

So basically they've already *got* their humans and are coming to B5 after the others?

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That's my guess, since later events show Morden at this point already knew VP (and later President) Clark and had infiltrated the not-Bester faction of the Psi Corps. Why bother with a station commander if you can have a future President?

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imhilien.livejournal.com

I know it didn't really occur to me the first time I watched this episode that the presence of a Morden as a human 'emissary', meant that the Shadows had already 'got' to the humans. Ones with some authority, anyway.

*twitches*

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Thinking a bit more - do the Shadows know Sinclair is Valen? They knew enough to send a small force against Babylon 4 to destroy it before it disappeared in "War Without End"... If they also knew about Valen's identity, they might have just decided there was no point in trying to approach Sinclair, and that it might be dangerous to give him any hints about their existance.

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imhilien.livejournal.com

My two cents after watching this episode...

- I had forgotten how I loved to hate Morden and his Smirk(TM). I think I read somewhere once that Morden would have been revealed to be Sinclair's long lost brother if Sinclair had stayed on the show (I could be wrong, though).

- Delenn's triangle appeared on her forehead to let her know the Shadows were nearby... but I wonder how suspicious Morden was when she told him to leave.

- I like the way Kosh's ship folds its wings(?) when it docks at the station.

- We see the existence of bathrooms on the station, something I don't recall seeing much in other sci-fi shows. I mean, does the Tardis even have one? LOL.

- Wonder if when the seer heard panicked voices, it was the future that would have happened if B4 hadn't gone back through time, which meant there would be more Shadows in the 'present' to attack the station.

Things that made me eye the back of the couch:

"The Shadows have come for Lord Kiro... the Shadows have come for us all!"

- First sight of Shadow ship. Brr.

- When the seer drops the cup after seeing the Shadow ship attack the ship Lord Kiro was on, I thought the spilled drink looked like a Shadow ship. I was possibly overreacting by this point in my semi-gibbering state. :-p

- A big shadow (natural) passes over the station at the end...

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This is the second showing of a bathroom, and there are more (I know, it's weird to remember this, but it is so unusual to see them.) Garibaldi and either commander seem to make a habit of meeting there! My husband pointed out a woman entering the bathroom after they left, and we had a lively discussion on whether the facilities are unisex on B5 afterwards. And the first time we saw a 'special' stall for the pak'mara...I don't think I want to know.

Agree on the couch; I still think the Shadow ships are full on scary. When Morden fades into darkness in Delenn's quarters...I think it was a great idea to rely on other's reactions rather than show much of anything about the Enemy. It builds it up nicely.

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widsidh.livejournal.com

whether the facilities are unisex on B5

I *think* I saw a gender symbol on the wall, couldn't swear to it though.
Which begs the question whether the categories "male" and "female" appliy to all aliens species...

They are definitely unisex in BSG (even in the absense of aforementioned potentially ambiguous aliens), which somehow prefer. No queues at the Ladies', for one thing ;-)

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imhilien.livejournal.com

I watched S&P on the DVD with JMS's voiceover, and he sheepishly explained at the bathroom scene that the woman walking into it after Sinclair and Garibaldi left it was a mistake. So it seems that it wasn't a unisex bathroom. :-p

As for the alien bathrooms... I agree, there are some things We Aren't Meant to Know.

Morden becoming darker in Delenn's quarters was a good (and ominous) way of showing to the audience he's definitely not on the Light Side of the Force...

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"So it seems that it wasn't a unisex bathroom. :-p"

Oh man, that's terrible. I was planning a fic about bathroom encounters...

From:

beatrice_otter

But that's secondary canon--that was never said on the show itself. So if it's in your way, I'd feel free to ignore it.

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aris-tgd.livejournal.com

I absolutely love this episode. And not just because I'm a giant Morden fangirl, but because like everyone says, this is where it starts to really take off.

The Raiders storyline falling down I'd attribute to the guest actor's... questionable line readings. It's really hard to remember, but the Raiders were the big recurring menace in Season 1 up until now. They had prominent roles in Midnight on the Firing Line and Believers, and they look like they're being set up as a long-term station problem. And then WHAM.

Also, I love that the battle sequence actually has some tactics. Not necessarily coherent tactics, but tactics. And there's Corwin, pre-name and still sporting long hair!

Probably besides Londo and G'Kar's answers to Morden, my favorite line in this is Kiro's "Where did it go wrong, Mollari? Where did we lose it all?" Because I love the idea of this lost golden age, the feeling of waking up and finding the landscape around you completely changed and realizing you've been sleepwalking. It's one of my favorite emotions to see realized in fiction and I think that everyone involved pulled it off fantastically, leading us straight into Londo's monologue, which would have been ridiculous without the setup.

Awesome episode, all told.

From:

wychwood

And so: it begins.

It was really interesting watching Morden from the perspective of "but if you don't know what's up with him...". He really is very random!

I like the set-up within the episode, too, for G'Kar and Londo's different reactions. Because their conversations with Morden are characteristic for their general attitudes, but they're also very definitely reinforced by earlier scenes. Oh, Londo. Don't do it! Noo!

Baby Corwin! Awww.

From:

ruuger

I wonder what's the significance of August 3rd? We don't get specific dates for episodes very often, but at least two episodes - this one and "Interludes and Examinations" take place on August 3rd.

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