"TKO" discussion [spoilers]

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 1X14, "TKO". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Extra reading:

The article for "TKO" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[ruuger]

I just read the Lurker's Guide article and it has the following quote from JMS:

There's a corker in "TKO," but at the moment, it's absolutely invisible. It's not a clue, it's not necessary for the story, it's just one of those things that, after you've seen all the rest of this season's episodes, you will go "Ouch," when you see it next.

Anyone have any guesses what he meant? It's been a few weeks already since I watched the episode so I can't think of what it could be :)

[traviswells.livejournal.com]

"You never knew how to watch your back, Garibaldi."

[ruuger]

Duh, of course :) Thanks.

How much B5 street-cred do I lose for not remembering that line? ;)

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

Well, originally TKO and Chrysalis were supposed to air, like, RIGHT after each other. The change in the airing schedule makes it a much less connected zap.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

Where is everybody?

The two plots in this one are so diverse...yet they give us some insight into two of the main characters, Garibaldi and Ivanova. We see another one of Garibaldi's friends though this time there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between these two. Susan has refused to sit shiva for her father not out of any rejection of being Jewish but she is still angry with him for denying here the love she needed when her mother died.

It also shows how the rest of the non aligned worlds look at humans. They have NO respect for the humans as warriors at all, warning Walker Smith that he had no place here. I thiunk perhaps they *do* think of humans as Minbari pets.

Anyone else???

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"Where is everybody?"

Blame a beautiful weekend, and loss of internet access. I'll try to comment more later.

But I wanted to say that's an interesting perspective about the lack of respect for humans as warriors and as Minbari 'pets'. I actually used that concept once as other Minbari referring to Delenn keeping John as a 'pet', meant, of course, as a gross insult.

However, the takeaway I got from the alien reaction to human intrusion into the ring was that they thought the humans were brash upstarts who didn't respect others' traditions. Possibly that as we arrived on the interstellar stage abruptly, first riding into the Dilgar War saving everyone; then fighting the older and more powerful Minbari, and seemingly 'winning'; then putting together the station with our new allies, with a human commander and only our Security forces allowed to be armed. Resentment was the attitude I saw.

More later on Susan's story, which I thought was much more interesting.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

This is, I would argue, the single worst episode of Babylon 5. “Infection” and “Grey 17 is Missing” are both at least entertaining in a b-movie sort of way, while “Deconstruction of Falling Stars” at least has a few good ideas. “TKO”, though? It’s just plain dull.

And it feels like a particularly pointless dull at that – Surely B5 has a large enough cast without devoting an entire episode to Garibaldi’s never-before-seen, never-seen-again friend? The fact that said friend is an arrogant dick who never refers to aliens with anything other than racial slurs doesn’t help things, of course… I’d have been quite happy to see him lose.

As for the Ivanova plot – well, it’s better than the Mutai plot. Still doesn’t strike me as great though – I don’t know, it all feels very artificial and calculated. Of course she’s going to initially reject the Rabbi’s offer, and of course she’s going to change her mind at the last minute… the story never feels like it’s doing anything but going through the motions. Plus, the mood shift is a little too abrupt when the episode cuts between Ivanova sitting shiva and Smith beating the crap out of someone in the Mutai.

- I feel the episode would make more sense if Smith was initially rejected because he was an jerk to the Mutai-Do, not because he’s human; the other competitors seem to come from five or six different species. There’s no evidence anywhere else in the series that there’s any sort of pan-League identity that would lead to humans being specifically excluded, and the Mutai already seems cosmopolitan enough that a Narn and a Centauri are standing side by side as spectators!

- The intial appearance of the Mutai is a little disappointing, considering how much Garibaldi built it up as a bloodbath. The actual fight between Smith and the Sho-Rin is brutal, but the first fight with the Drazi doesn’t look any tougher than regular boxing.

- My old nemesis, alien races who never show up again, makes two appearnces here – the Mutai themselves, and the alien with the bad skin who tries to shoot Smith during the fight. For that matter, are the Mutai-Do and the Sho-Rin meant to be the same species? They look pretty different.

- I find myself in complete sympathy with Ivanova. I don’t have a particularly good relationship with my father, and if he died and someone else decided to go behind my back and talk to my boss about my handling of the situation – well, hell, I suspect I wouldn’t be talking to that person again for a very long time.

- What is the significance of a sanovar (sp.?) ? Are they specifically Jewish, or Russian, or what? Neither are cultures I’m particularly familiar with…

- So what was the grey-haired alien’s motivation supposed to be? He got his ass kicked in the Mutai, so now he helps out random aliens who want to compete? Having him turn out to have some hidden agenda would have been a bit predictable, but hell – this episode needs all the plot it can get.

- It feels somewhat off to have Sinclair and Ivanova as particularly close friends. If anything, it seems to me like it’d make more sense if Garibaldi dropped by to show his respect at the shiva. Of course, he had much more important things to deal with…

- One thing which does rather work is the place of the episode in the arc. Last week saw the Raiders destroyed as an organised force, so I think it’s rather nice as a bit of continuity that this week both plots rely on the senior staff having a lot of free time to focus on personal issues and interests; something of the calm before the storm, as it looks like things are settling down a bit. Of course, apparently this episode was actually meant to air when “Quality of Mercy” did, so that’s not actually intentional.

[ruuger]

What is the significance of a sanovar (sp.?) ? Are they specifically Jewish, or Russian, or what? Neither are cultures I’m particularly familiar with…

Russian. JMS taks about it and Ivanova's Russian heritage here.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

In haste:
I think this was a weird one - an excellent character "B" plot about Ivanova, moving and spiritual (which was quite rightly given an award) alongside a disappointing title story, which lacked coherence (see other posts) and did not even deliver interesting or realistic fights to live uzp to the reputation of the Mutai (any concept of keeping up one#s guard!!!?).

An interesting combination...:-)

[kel-1970.livejournal.com]

I just wrote a total rant about this episode, but then realized that would be my first posting to this group. So, I will mostly abstain until I have something nicer to say -- which will be very, very soon!

Did like the bits and pieces one could glean about how Humans are viewed by other species.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Put it up in your journal; I'd love to read it!

[kel-1970.livejournal.com]

Your wish is my command! (How did you know I still had it somewhere?) :)

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I agree with what's been said here -- the Mutai plot needed a few more twists or some more cultural context or something.

I like what we learn about Ivanova here although again, nothing really took me by surprise.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Better late than never?

OK, I actually almost like Walker this time through. Not his xenophobia or cocksuredness, but his tenacity, and his self-understanding that you have to compete against the best to test your true worth. Hate the white blood though.

The story I liked best was the Ivanova one. I will pass along some info from a group of Jewish fans I met at a con seminar on B5 which focused on religion for some obscure reason. They were all very fond of this episode for showing them and their religion in sf, in the future, and in a positive light. So there's that.

My husband pointed out that Susan weaseled on her reasons for avoiding sitting shiva...she didn't say she didn't want to, or she didn't see any reason to, or it wouldn't be any use, but only that she couldn't be spared from work. This left an opening a mile wide and a kilometer deep for her rabbi to exploit. It wasn't 'kosher' (if you'll excuse the expression) for him to do so, but still. It was almost like she was asking him to intervene. My opinion only--she wanted to do it, but needed to be pushed. A spiritual counsellor's job to some extent.

Her relationship with Sinclair is more interesting. I've noticed this time through that she jokes around with him, not like her free and easy relationship with John, however. I don't see Garibaldi coming to the shiva, because although they've been friendly, I've never liked his comment when he discovered who she'd been talking to on the Gold Channel, and told her, 'it'll never happen again, right?' Kinda cold when no, it'll never happen again cause her father's dead now.
Sinclair always seemed more like a father figure to Susan, and Sheridan like a brother, even though the two men were close in age. It was Valen showing through I guess. She is so upset when he goes back in time; I always wanted to know more about their relationship, and how she felt when he was reassigned to Minbar.

[shapinglight]

Very, very late. Sorry about that.

It's now several weeks since I watched this episode, and I think this is the first time I remember not being pleasantly surprised, though in fact I don't think the episode as bad as all that. I like Walker Smith as a character, but I find the whole idea of the mutai troubling. It's one of those moments in B5, like the voiceover in the credits about 'humans and aliens,' because it seems to divide the universe into humans and not-humans when all the alien races follow the mutai but humans are not allowed. Why would all the alien races be interested in the same form of martial arts and feel themselves bound by the same rules? It makes no sense to me.

On the other hand, Ivanova's arc in this episode makes perfect sense, even how easily she breaks down in front of her rabbi, seeing as he's someone who has known her since she was a child. Worth re-watching for the Ivanova scenes alone.