b5_revisited

this was supported by Bester saying earlier in the season that he had assumed Sheridan to be more friendly towards the Corps

Even with this assumption, this line of Bester's still makes no sense whatsoever, because Sheridan was nothing but cooperative with him in that episode. Either there was a missing scene in A race through dark places where Sheridan suddenly did something non-cooperative, or this was really clumsy way of signalling to the audience that Sheridan (still a relatively new character) isn't going to be a tool but will be as hostile as Sinclair was to the corps from now onwards.

I can't remember what I thought the Psi Corps uniform meant, just that it was in intriguing image. Sheridan's interpretation as foreshadowing his alliance with Bester later worked for me; what didn't work was the "man in between", which is why I really like the alternative

londonkds suggests below.

From:

One of the B5 episodes that is interesting in retrospect (the dream, the introduction of Ta'Lon) but still forgettable in itself, with a cliched plot and bad guys who are built up as a big threat but are never even alluded to again.

I always think that the "man in between" is actually Lorien, whatever conclusion Sheridan came to.

From:

Lorien as the "man between" makes far more sense than Sheridan's interpretation!

From:

Yes, between the Vorlons and Shadows, between life and death for Sheridan. And it's also a fanon for me that the "between the darkness and the light" line in the Grey Council oath was not "protecting the light from the dark", as the Minbari seem to interpret it, but Sinclair recognising that the Vorlons and Shadows were not respectively good and evil and a third way would eventually need to be found.

Edited Date: 2009-08-31 06:57 pm (UTC)

From:

*adopts this fanon as well*

You know, this would actually fit with To Dream in the City of Sorrows (aka the "what Sinclair was doing between Chrysalis and War Without End" novel written by Kathryn Drennan) beautifully, because that one has Sinclair develop an increasing distrust against the Vorlons and being unwilling to take their goodness for granted the way the Minbari do. (I pick and choose with the tie-ins; you know we feel the same way about The Shadow Within, but the Sinclair novel is much better.)

Question: considering Sheridan isn't Centauri, how come he has this somewhat prophetic dream to begin with? Is Kosh's presence in said dream and awareness of it a sign that Kosh has already started to do what he later seems to do with G'Kar in Dust to Dust and with Sheridan during his own death in s3, i.e. some kind of telepathic communication?

From:

I always assumed it was a message from Kosh in typically oblique Vorlon style, although some of the content seems to imply that were this true Kosh was already having his own doubts about the righteousness of the war.

From:

I always assumed that's who it meant - it seemed to be the only part of the dream that could be meaningfully interpreted.

From:

widsidh.livejournal.com

Afterthought - I think the dream sequence is also the first time the question "why are you/am I here" appears..., forgotten by most of us when Lorien comnes up with it again a few years later.

From:

Came back to this post and noticed this - Emperor Turhan says it to Sheridan in "The Coming of Shadows".

From:

Watchable episode, but not a favourite, neither back in the day nor now. What struck me immediately upon rewatching it was that the Delenn subplot evokes different emotions now than it did then. Back then, I reacted as I think we're supposed to; I felt sorry for Delenn and was enraged at what I saw as a display of Minbari racism, plus I was worried about the Grey Council now being dominated by the Warrior Caste. Rewatching, I have a lot more sympathy for Neroon, especially since it's not too long since we rewatched Legacies. By treating him - and come to think of it, also the Minbari in the earlier s2 episode who just wanted an explanation why Delenn changed, which she denied pulling status on him - unnecessarily arrogant, Delenn certainly created her own enemy and her own ostracism, in parts at least. Here we see her for the first time exlain to other Minbari why she changed, and what she wants to achieve in terms of reconciliation, and I think it's significant it's the council she explains herself to. Delenn until this point still displays very much an hierarchic mind set; nobody but her fellow council members are her equals. Thinking about it, I also realized that until this ostracism by the council, Delenn never had an experience where she wasn't part of the upper hierarchy, an outsider instead of an insider. She excelled as a student, she was Dukhat's chosen successor, she was the youngest member of the Grey Council, and yet they not only followed her lead in the war but in the peace, and wanted to make her leader; to be rejected instead of praised and obeyed by other Minbari is completely new.

Something else: it's interesting that Delenn's worry about the military caste now dominating the Council leading to renewed war turns out to be a red herring. I mean, yes, we get the Minbari civil war in s4, but not only is that, when it comes, presented as being as much the religious caste's fault a it is the warrior caste's, but it happens after the Shadow War; during the Shadow War, instead of, say, taking advantage of the situation to expand territory or something like this, the council members first follow Delenn's lead in breaking the council in s3 and then also follow her lead to support Sheridan with military help.

Speaking of red herrings: the first time around, I expected Robert Foxworth's character to become more important than he actually did. (I know, there was a casting problem, i.e. he also got a guest role on DS9 by the time B5 seceeded from Earth, but still.) Rewatching, I can't help but notice a certain irony in the whole "several higher uppers in the military get together in a conspiracy to depose Clark" thing, even while he and Sheridan talk about Clark's assumption of power being a coup. I mean, yes, there is "something nasty going on" back home. And we know Santiago was indeed assassinated. But these gents here aren't exactly talking about new elections either, are they? One assumes WWII-obsessed JMS might have been going for a parallel with the July 20th conspirators against Hitler, who came near exclusively from the army, with some diplomats thrown in, but even these guys, who weren't stellar democrats but originally monarchists, thought of having a civilian chancellor prepared to take over from Hitler and NOT someone from their own ranks.

Red Herrings, III: Sheridan and his friend talking about Psi Corps as the prime mover and shaker behind Clark. We've discussed the question whether this means JMS changed his mind later or whether it was a deliberate red herring before, and while not being entirely sure, I'm still leaning on the "red herring" side, simply because, as I said earlier, Psi Corps as the Big Bad on Earth (instead of part of Psi Corps being in bed with Clark, but as one of his tools rather than vice versa) wouldn't have been as interesting; it would have amounted to Sheridan & Co. just having to remove the Eeeevil Telepaths (tm) instead of having to fight a civil war.

Like the other commentators, I'm really happy Ta'Lon (yay!) was not a one shot character and came back, because that story with Sheridan was exceedingly predictable (Star Trek did these type of scenarios so often you can practically decide every moment and every line by heart).

From:

Kind of a weak episode for a variety of reasons – mainly because the Streib plot takes time away from the more interesting Delenn and General Hague plots, and also because Sheridan’s dream ends up not really going anywhere.

Then again, even if Sheridan’s dream had proven meaningful, I still wouldn’t have liked it – compare it with Londo’s dream. Londo’s dream works because even on a first viewing it’s fairly clear what it means – the mystery is how these events will come to pass, not what they are. Sheridan’s dream is a collection of random symbolic images that would have been impossible to interpret correctly the first time around even if they were pointing at anything specific.

And if Kosh is sending the dream, as is implied – well, why’d he wait until Sheridan was several sectors away in hyperspace before sending it to him? And how can Kosh know about the things the dream is about? Admittedly, since most of the dream turns out to be not that meaningful after all, that’s not that much of a problem – I guess Kosh just decided to send some random symbols at Sheridan to get his attention.

Delenn plot – same as selenak, I found myself rather more sympathetic to Neroon than I was expecting, and was rather hoping we’d get more of him mocking Delenn instead of yet more “Sheridan tries to lever open a suspiciously slightly open door”. In “Legacies”, Delenn used her power as Satai to force Neroon to assist in her deception; it’s clear he’s quite relishing the opportunity to deliver a little payback. And it’s rather hard to disagree with his assessment that the Grey Council is out of touch with Minbari society.

Random thought – it seems Delenn has never bothered to let anyone know that she consulted with Kosh before undergoing her transformation... you’d think that would carry some weight.

General Hague: Can’t help but feel the tone of the conversation would be a lot less dubious if Hague had been instead a senator or something – hell, they could have used Marie Crane, the opposition leader mentioned in “Midnight on the Firing Line.” Unfortunately there series is fairly consistent in portraying Earth’s entire political class as complicit in Clark’s regime.

Just me, or did the dialogue between Sheridan and Hague need rewriting a little bit? As it is, their conversation can be paraphrased as:
Hague: Your record makes you look like the sort of jarhead who’d go along with Clark’s plans.
Sheridan: How do you know I won’t turn you in, then?
Hague: A man’s record says a lot about him, and yours tells me you’re not the sort to go along with Clark’s plans.
Sheridan: ...alright.

Minor notes:

- Damnit, if you’re going to do an alien abduction episode, give the aliens a flying saucer! I know, I know, the Vree already have them – but the makeup’s the same anyway; go all out! And don't try and do Geiger-esque techno-organic interiors unless you've actually got the budget for it...

- Ramirez seems to get more characterisation and a more meaningful death than Keffer did in an entire season...

From:

I guess Kosh just decided to send some random symbols at Sheridan to get his attention.

Which is ic for Kosh. :) He doesn't pose as anyone's father until later in the relationship and when he really wants an epiphany to happen...

Random thought – it seems Delenn has never bothered to let anyone know that she consulted with Kosh before undergoing her transformation... you’d think that would carry some weight.

Good point, given the esteem the Vorlons are held in by the Minbari. Though you know, it does fit with Dukhat keeping the two Vorlons in his chamber to himself instead of bothering to inform the rest of the Council about them, or that they're supposed to investigate this new potential allies called humans. You can say Delenn comes by the secrecy and the not-explaining-anything-unless-forced-to honestly.

General Hague: Can’t help but feel the tone of the conversation would be a lot less dubious if Hague had been instead a senator or something – hell, they could have used Marie Crane, the opposition leader mentioned in “Midnight on the Firing Line.”

Yes, that's what I meant with the irony of Hague and Sheridan talking about a coup while planning for what sounds awfully like a coup, with no democratic legitimacy involved whatsoever.

Unfortunately there series is fairly consistent in portraying Earth’s entire political class as complicit in Clark’s regime.

Don't forget that for all the "Santiago knew that if something ever happened to him..." nostalgia, Santiago's regime from s1 is the one where already a lot of the later developments are shown to be in place - the treatment of Mars, rising xenophobia, and hey, the status of Psi Corps. I recall Lushenko from Rising Star in s4 making a good first impression as a non-military politician, and also the female President during the Earth/Minbari war presented as favourably in In the Beginning, but generally speaking, you're right; there isn't really a portrait of political resistance towards Clark; most politicians on the show exist first to threaten B5's existence for budget reasons, make mean demands and then to be complicit in a regime-going-fascist. Whereas most military personnel portrayed on the show is presented in a good light. I wonder whether it's due to the tv cliché of "all politicians are evil and/or useless"? (The West Wing being the obvious exception, as a show where politicians of both parties are shown to be by and large well-intentioned and dedicated to public service, just with conflicting ideas of how to go about it.)

...now that I think of it, there is Number One. Who starts out as a resistance fighter, true, but isn't military, and she does become a politician post- independence, while consistently being portrayed in a favourable light. Still, she's on Mars, not from Earth.

Of course, this kind of set-up makes the leading role of Sheridan in the Earth civil war possible, because if there had been resistance to Clark lead by someone like Marie Crane, or, say, some leading senators whom Clark removed from office per martial decree once he got the fascism really going, Sheridan would have to defer to this person or persons unless he'd want to look like a hypocrite. And as he was supposed to be Aragorn, not Faramir...

From:

I'd count Number One as being along the same lines as Sheridan himself - it's OK to be a politician if you've also been a soldier.

I do wonder where the Hague plot was going - Keeping Hague around has the same problems as a hypothetical opposition civilian leader; worse, since there's a clear chain of command. I assume he wasn't scheduled to last much longer past "Severed Dreams" even if the actor had been available.

From:

Hm, you're right. I guess Hague would have died heroically, leaving Sheridan in charge...

I'd count Number One as being along the same lines as Sheridan himself - it's OK to be a politician if you've also been a soldier.

Meaning civilian-only politicians join reporters and historians as professions slandered by B5. Though in that light, it's interesting that with the Minbari we're clearly meant to sympathize with the religious caste (i.e. the politicians who AREN'T warriors - more than the military caste, with the working caste's existence only belatedly mattering at the end of the Minbari civil war but not throughout the show as a whole.

The Centauri are a case of their own because they're a monarchy, and questions of democratic legitimacy don't arise either way. Still, you could say Londo and Vir, both professional politicians without being part of the military in their world, are the most fleshed out portrayals of politicians we get...

From:

I could be nit-picky and point out that Londo led Centauri forces in the raid on Vallus 12, according to "Voice in the Wilderness"... but, yeah, he's clearly not a 'war hero' in the same way Sheridan or No.1 are, even if he does have some minor combat experience in his background.

We really don't know anything about the Centauri military, do we?

It's funny - it didn't occur to me until just now that the Minbari castes are the idealised division of medieval society - Those Who Pray, Those Who Fight, and Those Who Work. B5, it seems, sides with the Papacy over the Holy Roman Emperor in regards to who has supremacy out of the first two...

From: