"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 2X14, "There All the Honor Lies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan gets into trouble when he kills a Minbari in self-defense.

Extra reading:
The article for "There All the Honor Lies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Peter David, it bears repeating is one of those writers who know how to use an ensemble instead of just two or three characters. As with Soul Mates, we get three plots here (or four if you count Sheridan and Kosh as a seperate one) which occasionally intersect, and all of them are entertaining to watch. (Though I have my preferences, which will suprise no one when I get to them.)

To get the nitpick out of the way first: "They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one. Not because DS9 happens to be a fabulous show, which it is, but because this very episode has a main plot that is directly stolen definitely inspired from Star Trek, that tried-and-true formula of the Captain/First Officer/Other Beloved Member of Crew who gets framed and tried for a crime he/she didn't commit. TOS did, all subsequent Trek shows did it, but let me tell you, none of the subsequent Trek shows stole paid homage so directly as to actually use the "Vulcans Minbari don't lie" line.

Back to the episode. Predictable as the Sheridan-gets-framed plot was, I did enjoy it, and not just because we briefly get to see Julie Caitlin Brown again. (Why oh why couldn't she stay as Na'Toth? That was a rethorical question.) It's good continuity in terms of using Sheridan's backstory and the Minbari resentment again, and it shows that for Sheridan at this stage despite his attraction to Delenn, those issues aren't settled, either; he's awfully quick at first to believe Delenn is involved in the frame job. The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Cheap shot aside, the merchandising plot is worth it for the "so you feel yourself symbolically cas---t in a bad light" quip and the teddy bear alone.

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo. Their subplot has the least space and yet manages to pack a lot of punch and do some crucial things regarding both Vir's character and their relationship. It shows Vir's mixed feelings - on the one hand, he suffers under keeping Londo's secrets and the aiding and abetting that goes with this, on the other, he doesn't want to return home because, and this is important to understand what Vir's loyalty to Londo originally was based on, Londo is the first person who actually wants him around, who notices Vir as a person. We see the similarities between them - both originally got their jobs as a joke, out of disregard from others - as well as the differences; Vir, as Londo says much later, did not get cynical as a result. We also see that the relationship goes both ways by now and isn't one sided. (And note how the tone is shifting towards more equality; Vir's "what you want, what they want, how about what I want?" outburst would have been unthinkable for first season Vir.) Londo tries to help not just with the immediate problem (the threat to Vir's job) but the underlying one (disrespect towards Vir from his family and on Centauri Prime). Mind you, I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle (with descriptions like "swallowed up in silence" and Vir's later "and to find someone who could actually love someone like me" hinting at complete emotional neglect) doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

"They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one.

I have never had much time for the "who stole what from whom debate", especially as
a) I do not have a problem with appreciating both shows (same as you, it seems); I was a Trekkie before I ever knew about B5.
b) Stories in related genres, and especially in the same medium, are bound to a certain extent by the genre itself, and they are written by people who know what went before, and oftn what is going on concurrently; consequently, there will always be overlaps, both deliberate and accidental
c) DS9 and B5 went out pretty much at the same time, so they were predestined for all kind of cross-fertilization of this kind, probably going *both ways*.

But actually, until you made that comment (and I don't think we disagree much there) I had forgotten about the whole thing, or rather, filed it under "irrelevant" in the back of my brain. So when i saw the episode a few days ago, the only thing the writeres seemsed to take pot-shopts at was the concept of merchandizing. I am not sure how much was already goping on at the time, or whether the things in the shop were all real, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were! I know the bear was a private joke.

Yes and that line about the Londo doll was divine...

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo.

Yes, but I'm biased :-)

I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle ... doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Absolutely: I love both my space station shows, and to this day refuse to choose between them.

I think that is part of his tragedy? He tries, but he keeps failing. Here it is on a personal, rather than political level for a change; another thing that I am only noticing this time round.

Welllll, that's not quite how I'd put it. Because Londo also succeeds, and I don't mean in the bitterly ironic sense Elric did. In this case, he may not be able to patch up Vir's relationship with his family, but because he shows Vir that he, Londo, genuinenly cares for Vir, Vir is able to maintain his role as Londo's conscience. More than that: by s5, we get that extraordinary scene from The very long night of Londo Mollari where in Londo's mind, Vir actually is his reason to continue living. (Mind!Vir's plea to turn around is the one Londo finally listens to, after Vir says in reply to Londo's "but wouldn't it be better if I died now?" "I would miss you".) Their friendship survives, and not least due to it Vir is one day in a position to become Emperor and restore Londo's beloved Centauri Prime.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, but much of this is down more to Londos feeling/intention than his actions. He means well and he cares, politically and personally, but the positive outcomes we see are not usually the result of his actions themselves (though I agree that his intentions do have some effect).
For instance, even though Londo's support means that Vir will eventually be emperor and in a position to reatore Centauri Prime, there might have been no need for restoration had it not been for Londo's actions in the first place.
To me these look more like a case of redemption, where destiny/God/the Universe acknowledges the general goodness of the characters (more to Vir's than Londo's, who is less "innocent" in his ways).

Having said that, though, in this episode Londo's reference to Lennier's earlier lie does have immediate and important positive effects, so even Londo is capable of getting it right :-)

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

this very episode has a main plot that is directly stolen definitely inspired from Star Trek

And that's my main problem with the A plot here; it feels so generic sci-fi tv that it could have been in any series, and it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know. If you're going to borrow Star Trek tropes, try to subvert them or something, please!

The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

it may have even been a Star Trek spec script that PAD reworked to submit to B5 for all we know.

Possibly, with Ira Behr, Ron Moore et al. telling him "You know, we really can't use the Vulcans don't lie line anymore and we already did the Worf-gets-framed episode this season, so...

Because Neroon has a point. He's not ever shown to be casually racist; he just has an agenda that he believes is important to the Minbari (or the Warrior Caste, at least).

That, and due to the rewatch it's not that long since we watched Legacies where Delenn forces Neroon to go against his convictions and with her ideas not because she is able to convince him or even tries to, but simply by pulling rank on him. "I'm satai, you're just a lowly warrior, so obey!" is really not the way to show you're working for the good of everyone, and turnaround on Neroon's part felt earned. Whereas Lennier's clan mate here is just being a racist jerk.

I agree like the Vir/Londo moment is very important, yes. You have to have that moment before Londo does the unspeakably wrong things; otherwise he's just a bad guy and that's BORING.

Quite, and you wouldn't understand why Vir bothers to try and save Londo at all. It occurs to me that we get three episodes in which JMS highlights Londo's capacity for friendship - Acts of Sacrifice, this one, and Knives - before the one that showcases Londo's dark side (and how) in The Long, Twilight Struggle, which shows you how the complexity of the character is maintained. (Just imagine the very different emotional effect if we'd gone straight from Coming of Shadows to The Long Twilight Struggle.

But to go back to Vir, even aside from his relationship with Londo, this is so important for how he deals with his own growing guilt about the Narn situation, because we see how keeping Londo's secrets burdens him here; later this season we'll get the terrific scene with him and G'Kar where Vir attempts to apologize, and afterwards in s3 he'll take action to actively save Narns. So this glimpse at Vir's dilemma needs to be...