"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 2X14, "There All the Honor Lies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan gets into trouble when he kills a Minbari in self-defense.

Extra reading:
The article for "There All the Honor Lies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Catching up, and not much to add. The Trek comparisons don't bother me; probably because I first watched B5 ages after both were off the air. It's just not that obvious or bothersome to me.

The shop had some cool ship models, I totally would have bought the bear, and I want to see the Halloween party where everyone comes as 'an alien'.

The 'beauty in the dark' sequence I always thought was foreshadowing for the Lorien sequences on Z'ha'dum. Sheridan has to give up his idea of what's important (symbolized here by his rank) in order to receive a gift; of beauty, of life. It's the same scene, to me. Kosh is asking him 'who are you?' We go back and forth with all the characters discovering what is important; who they are, and what they want. The 'Minbari don't lie' storyline is part of this exploration.

It also echoes the singing of the pak'ma'ra, doesn't it? The idea that beauty comes from the dark, from the least of us, from places we never expect it to.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Hm, thinking of this as a parallel to the Lorien scenes hadn't occured to me. (Possibly because I tend to avoid the Lorien scenes if I possibly can and wish this particular plot had been achieved via the bit of Kosh still in Sheridan...) But I can sort of see what you mean.

The singing of the Pak'mara: oh yes, you're right!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

The Lorien scenes. Sigh. Not the best moments but important concepts nonetheless. I liked them much more the second, and even more the third, time through. It will be interesting to see how they play out this time.

Does anyone think that Kosh has a piece of himself in Sheridan at this point? They've made mental contact now (All Alone in the Night), and I always wondered if Kosh was learning about Sheridan partly from the inside out.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

My main problem with Lorien is that the very premise of Lorien counteracts the very premise of THE ideological point that ends the Shadow War: to wit, thanks, parents, we're done now, leave. Growing up by refusing to fight your parents' wars anymore and telling them to get the hell out of this galaxy while simultanously getting a Big Daddy to make it all better? There is, shall we say, a slight conflict of ideas here.

Re: Kosh and Sheridan - I always thought the piece of himself came during their telepathic contact just before Kosh's death, but otoh it's absolutely possible Kosh already deposed something earlier, to find out more about Sheridan. Or perhaps one of the points of the "moment of perfect beauty" experience was that in such a state of calmness and appreciation, Kosh can get more of a mental impression of Sheridan, i.e. he does this intermittendly but not on an ongoing basis all the time? After all, Sheridan will surprise him later.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Kosh and Sheridan: I was speaking of intermittent contact. The actual splitting off a piece of himself did come in Interludes ('Remember' I always think to myself, all Spock-like), but I like the idea of Kosh dipping into each ambassador occasionally to figure them out/nudge them along or perhaps even just voyeuristically.

That aspect of Lorien doesn't bother me; we're the teenagers now, being given that last little push out of the nest. Lorien helps set it up, like a good parent, but then stands back and lets us make the final decision. And after all, he's the Shadows and Vorlons' parent too. It felt more like a family meeting than an intervention.
I just thought it went on way...too...long. And I hated the 'fingers of mist' holding Sheridan in mid-air. Like I said, I was much more philosophically inclined the second time through (older at least, if not wiser) and liked it more.

[-happyme-.livejournal.com]

Very insightful (with excellent taste in icons too).