"Mind War" discussion [spoilers]
Mar. 1st, 2009 07:41 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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b5_revisitedThis is the discussion post for the episode 1X06, "Mind War". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.
Extra reading:
The article for "Mind War" at Lurker's Guide.
Extra reading:
The article for "Mind War" at Lurker's Guide.
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no subject
Date: 2009-03-01 06:29 pm (UTC)(I mean, in the subplot, Andreas Kastulas rocks the socks of "nobody here is what they appear" and the ant speech, making these scenes highlights of the season!)
Also, Andrea Thompson I thought was excellent in her "do you know how telepaths make love" scene with Sinclair; she did sell me on this, it's just that when she's in the same room as Ironheart, the lack of chemistry fails to sell me on their connection.
Obviously, Ironheart's gift of telekinesis would have been important later had Andrea Thompson not left the show; I'm assuming Talia would have gone Phoenix the way Lyta did, just not because of the Vorlons but because of Ironheart.
On to the good stuff. Which is to say, my absolutely favourite non-regular character on this show. This is Bester's introduction, and I'm eternally grateful for Walter Koenig's heart attack that prevented him from playing Knight#2, the role JMS had originally written for him, because Bester, even in this early stage when he's just the visiting bad guy, is clearly a much more interesting character. (And gets to do more than poor Chekov did in many an ST episode, too.) One trait that JMS will develop more in later appearances but is already visible here is Bester's fondness for verbal games ("anatomically impossible, Mr. Garibaldi, but you're welcome to try") in addition to mental ones.
Continuity-relevant elements abound: much about Psi Corps, obviously, from the P-12 rated Psi Cops to the attempts to enhance psychic gifts artificially to the connection to other conspiracies. Also, here we see Ivanova for the first time act in a sympathetic fashion towards Talia, when she gives her the glass of water. It's interesting to compare and contrast this episode to Bester's last appearance on the show, The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father, because the basic plot is similar - former Corps telepath who killed and has gone rogue shows up on the station, Bester is in pursuit - but the perspective is completely turned around (while maintaining the absolute ruthlessness and disdain Psi Cops have towards non-telepaths).
The idea of the goverment/Psi Cops being interested in telekinesis not for heavy lifting but for secret assassinations via squeezing arteries is something that clearly fascinated JMS as he uses it again in his comic book Rising Stars.
The idea of the existence of telepaths resulting in something like the Psi Corps, originally because of the fear non-telepaths have of telepaths and the need to regulate then, with the after effect of the Psi Corps turning from a ghetto into a weapon both on its own and on the normals, is something that always struck me as chillingly plausible, more plausible than a society where telepathy is just accepted.
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Date: 2009-03-02 03:00 am (UTC)I'm curious why you disliked Ironheart. I thought the actor was unfortunate but I didn't particularly hate him.
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Date: 2009-03-02 06:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-01 07:34 pm (UTC)Obviously, a great deal of what is set up in this episode, with Talia being gifted with Ironheart's TK abilities, goes to waste when Andrea Thompson leaves the show, which is a great pity - and I have to say, with every episode I rewatch, I regret the replacement of Michael O'Hare more and more -but the episode does a lot more than further Talia's story arc, since it introduces the Psi Cops and shows how very much they're a law to themselves and the Psi Corps a kind of nation within a nation.
I did find it hard to believe in Talia and Ironheart's prior relationship and it didn't help that I found the 'when telepaths make love' speech rather overdone (and I wish Andrea Thompson would pout less), but I think the story of Ironheart does a good job of introducing yet another of the many, convoluted plot strands in the show.
Of far more interest to me, in fact, is the B plot with G'Kar and Catherine Sakai. I like Sakai very much and am sorry we ended up seeing so little of her, and I thought all her exchanges with G'Kar in this episode were very spot on, especially the last. It also gives us further insight into G'Kar, showing yet more of his many hidden depths and helping to flesh out the Narns as a people.
The two plots do dovetail beautifully at the end, though, in that they both give us glimpses - through Ironheart's transformation and through the Sigma 957 beings - of the sheer vastness and wonder of the universe.
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Date: 2009-03-02 02:57 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 09:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-01 07:34 pm (UTC)Things that stuck with me: Susan giving Talia the water, and putting her hand on Sinclair's shoulder to keep him from throttling Bester. Does she see Talia as fellow victim now, and so begin to empathize with her?
Also, altho I like the teep love-making speech, it still seems like TMI for Talia to discuss it with Sinclair. When I first watched, between that and the dinner date, I thought they had a thing going.
Why does Ironheart not twig to Evil!Talia at this point, if he is able to see everything in everyone down to the atomic level? I have theories, but would like to know what others think.
G'Kar telling Catherine that Sinclair is not what he appears to be. G'Kar's telling Catherine we can't communicate with the older races, only stay out of their way. Knowing that we will have to, and that we will--the audacity of humanity.
Who watches the watchmen, and how that will come back to haunt them on various levels.
Lastly, I think telepaths in RL would be feared and despised, much as the show indicates; and then controlled and used if possible, exterminated if not. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to human nature.
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Date: 2009-03-02 12:10 pm (UTC)I hadn't thouight about Evil!Talia till you mentioned it. My flip answer was that she didn't exist yet, :P, but then perhaps that's true. Maybe it's after this episode that Bester realises he needs to keep an eye on things on B5. I can't really think if there are any suitable gaps in Season 1 where that would happen. I suppose she might return to Psi Corps HQ to find out more about what Jason went through, maybe even volunteer for a less extreme experiment than Jason's to find some answers and end up with Evil!Talia in her head. Hmm, fic possibilities...
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Date: 2009-03-02 02:45 pm (UTC)I have something in mind for Talia in an upcoming fic, but it's one of my bizarro AUs so it'll be different ;) It's always different...
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Date: 2009-03-02 01:28 pm (UTC)I figure that was just the exit for Andrea Thompson's character and not something that was initiated so early on like now. It's clear that they still intended to expand with Talia's character so it's quite possible that the Evil!Talia personality or even idea didn't even exist (at the writing level---Idk about plot level). To try to theorize around the Powers That Be thing, I suppose
The exit is this way, please...
Date: 2009-03-02 02:47 pm (UTC)Who came first, Good!Talia or Evil!Talia?
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Date: 2009-03-02 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-03 01:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-07 04:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 06:30 pm (UTC)I think she saw her as a victim from the start, or at least, from that first discussion at the bar. In that, she seems frustrated that Thalia does not realize it herself.
Empathy probably came later, and witnessing the scan might have helped...
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Date: 2009-03-01 11:00 pm (UTC)I did find Talia's description of how it feels to be a teep interesting but her making love speech just creeped me out. I found Talia as sexy as a toad for some reason. And I agree with everyone that there was simply NO chemistry between her and Jason Ironheart(Though his name is great!).
G'Kar though! Wow! I really loved his quote - 'nobody here is what they appear' - this sets the tone for much of the series to come! Catherine Sakai was actually quite nice in this episode too... I love her mocking G'kar in her ship as she heads to Sigma 957. G'Kar is slowly coming to the forefront in the show... almost without us noticing it and he always gets the best lines too! HIs character is becoming less villain and more spokesman for 'everyman,' I think.
Bester... everyone needs someone to hate and Bester is the perfect villain. They even begin to set up what happens way down the road with Garibaldi and Bester. Best line here was Ivanova's: "What do you do in your spare time? Juggle babies over a fire pit?" She actually provides a giggle in the midst of the seriousness of that horrid acting by Bester's partner. God, what a relief to see her die! Poof! Gone!
I am sure that Talia was meant to be in the show a long time and this episode was probably the beginning of setting that story arc up but her departure really makes this episode useless as to plot development. Well, her part anyway. It does much to set up the coming of the shadows... (insert appropriate 'oooooo' sound).
Again, I want to stress how very much I am enjoying this! B5 is the best TV show ever, IMHO and it's fun to chat about it with someone new after a long time!
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Date: 2009-03-02 12:01 am (UTC)"That's a lie."
"Yes it is. What's your point?"
Bester's tagalong annoyed me--she was trying too hard to be sinister. Hello, you want to at least try to appear to be the good guys, you know--you're supposedly on the same side, remember? I know you're evil, honey, don't mean you gotta be stupid.
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Date: 2009-03-02 01:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-06 04:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 02:58 am (UTC)I agree, however with
Even though this is Bester's introduction, his behavior is very consistent in most ways with what we will see later, although he and his partner take a bit more Psi Cop 'latitude' this time around than we see in the future; this isn't so much of a continuity issue though because one can easily make the case that once people know what Bester is about, he has to tread more carefully. It was very odd to see Keonig in this role initially, but his arrogant manner couldn't have been farther from the affable Chekov, and it didn't take long for me to accept him in the role once he started speaking without the accent...
While G'Kar was pretty sympathetic in "Parliament in Dreams," this is the first time that we see him helping somebody else for reasons that aren't selfish. This is the first hint of where G'Kar may be going, and how eloquently he can express himself. His description of whom we will eventually come to know of as the First Ones is beautiful and in its acknowledgment of the vast history of the cosmos.
I have to say that I rather enjoyed Catherine. It was nice to have the story follow a character who had a job in the private sector, something we rarely ever saw on other science fiction programs (Star Trek didn't really do it at all until DS9) and widens the show's scope. I agree with
no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 04:18 am (UTC)* Look at Walter Koenig – after Star Trek, he became an actor!
Other notes:
- Sinclair’s first response when he realises Bester is communicating telepathically with him is one of almost… revulsion. I’ve always felt one of the better handled aspects of B5 is just how pervasive anti-telepath feelings are. Yes, Bester’s a villain – but Sinclair has no way of knowing that, and as far as we can tell, all he was trying to do was speed up the small talk…
- Going by Ironheart’s figures, there should still be hundreds of thousands of sane telekinetics… Would have been nice to have a line saying that, I don’t know, the more powerful a telekinetic, the less sane they are and that the ones that can function in society have almost negligible abilities…
- Babylon 5 has always struck me as having something of a scale problem with regards to the station. From what we see, it’s all narrow corridors and enclosed rooms; even major areas like the Zocalo are still closed rooms. Fresh food is rare and expensive, and generally has to be imported from Earth. But then we get the view from the monorail, and there’s apparently miles of green parkland around a huge open area… I realise there’s budget issues, but it always kind of bugs me. Even just having the ambassadorial quarters having windows and a view of the open area would have been nice.
- As with Sakai, while I like Talia, I feel her story works better for her replacement; ‘station telepath gains super-powers as a result of contact with the Vorlons, an established major power’ is a much more satisfying storyline than ‘station telepath gains super-powers as a result of contact with some guy we never see again.’
- Some real ‘tell, not show’ in Sinclair’s description of Ironheart as ‘feverish, paranoid’. I think it’d be a much stronger episode if it was a lot more ambiguous about whether Ironheart was in his right mind or not… and if it was ambiguous as to whether Ironheart survived his ship’s destruction – Cosmic Ironheart manages to beat out the Zarg for ‘Cheesiest looking character in a B5 episode…
- So, why didn’t the Psi-Corps continue with the experiments? Sure, maybe you end up with an uncontrollable infant god if you do this stuff to a P-10 – so try again with P-5s and lower! Calculated risk, right?
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Date: 2009-03-02 06:55 am (UTC)Yes, that's true, and the show is really consistent about this. I remember when first watching s4, the difference between Sheridan's treatment of Lyta in Epiphanies and Garibaldi later, during the middle of the season, struck me. Not the fact Lyta gets forced out of her quarters but that Sheridan, when dressing her down, threatens to hand her over to Psi Corps if she ever acts behind his back again. To Psi Corps, an organisation he despises and sees as fascist. Whereas with Garibaldi he might be increasingly pissed off, but he doesn't say "if you keep acting like this, we'll send you back to Clark". And as I mentioned in my comment above, The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father presents a great reverse pov to a very similar plot to Mind War. When Zack, upon hearing Bester say that the man he pursues has killed a Psi Cop, jokes "and that is bad because...?", it's not different from the comments Sinclair, Garibaldi or Ivanova make in Mind War. But in The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father, we've seen the murdered man's widow crying over his dead body in the previous scene, and we're also in the pov of Bester's interns who get introduced to mundanes this way, and suddenly Zack doesn't like like Standing Up To The (Psi-Cop) Man but like a callous bigot.
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Date: 2009-03-02 08:04 am (UTC)Sinclair is quite personable with Talia, even taking her to dinner after she arrives. And Sheridan is reasonable with Lyta, even protective of her before the Vorlons go rogue (and after that he has reason to worry). The human businessmen who utilize either of the telepaths have no obvious problems being surface-scanned (except when they are trying to pull something.) Franklin has no problems with Lyta, or the original doctor (whose name seems to be escaping me. Kyle, was it?)
Garibaldi and Susan are the two (and Zack later as you point out) that show their dislike more openly and generally. I think they are meant to be representative of the common attitude of uneasiness however.
The telepaths are the eternal 'other', and I find that fascinating. We can deal with all sorts of other races with various abilities and differences, but not the aliens among us. There's an element of guilt, too, I imagine. PsiCorps exists to make us feel better about the telepaths; so we can more safely use them. They make their own family out of the Corps because we have rejected them.
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Date: 2009-03-02 07:52 am (UTC)That bothered me too, and I like your explanation. Or it's an unstable ability, that comes and goes, or you lose it or it weakens as you grow older.
I always figured that they did, but didn't get them replicated successfully before they were shut down after the war. It also might have been a combination of something in Ironheart himself and the treatments, rather than just the treatments. I disliked the 'kill the researcher so no one can do it again'. Didn't the man keep notes?
They would need the plants to assist in air recycling though. And while animal products are rare (bacon and eggs) except for G'Kar's sources of hogsheads, there seem to be fruit and vegetables (oranges for sale in the Zocalo on pushcarts, Susan's salad). Doesn't jive with the breakfast slop they have to eat, but maybe that's to toughen up the officers :)
They might lease parts to other governments to grow their own required grains, etc. Or require acres for the nutritionally balanced grain (quadritriticale?) that goes into making breakfast slop.
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Date: 2009-03-02 12:03 pm (UTC)Perhaps its just cheap. The fresh stuff is sold, or the land is leased to people who want to grow stuff. After all, B5 does have financial problems from the outset...
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Date: 2009-03-07 04:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-02 06:27 pm (UTC)I had that feeling, too, and also when I first saw Gillian Anderson post-X-Files.
Thing is, an actor needs something to act with, especially a good script, but also good direction. Bester is so much more of a character than poor Chekhov was ever allowed to be.
BTW, there used to be joke:
"You have been watching B5 too much if...
...you think Chekhov was really Bester on an undercover mission."
(There was a whole list of th at kind of thing - no idea where the site has disappeared to.)
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Date: 2009-03-02 06:36 pm (UTC)I don't think so. Sinclair may not know the extent of Besters villainy, but he will have realised quite soon that he was bad news. Bester does not make any secret of his attitudes and if he tries to communicate telepathically to save time, it is unlikely that he is any more polite in doing so.
Also, these is some suggestion that the PsiCops have a reputation,something that would hev informed Sinclair's reaction, even if it had merely been based on prejudice.
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Date: 2009-03-03 05:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-03 12:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-03-08 11:37 pm (UTC)I do get rather puzzled by Sinclair's strategy, though. I mean, he clearly hates Bester and Kelsey on sight, but he keeps trying to intervene when, actually? He doesn't have the right. I do understand why he wants to jump in when they're hurting Talia, for instance, but he keeps trying to order them around, and... he doesn't get to do that. I like the fact that they've got their official story set up at the end, though! They antagonise Bester, but not the whole corps. Though, if I were them, I'm not sure I'd rely on even a Psi Cop's ability to lie to telepaths! It's not a particularly safe game.
But actually, my favourite part of this episode *isn't* the Bester thread; it's Sakai (who is fantastic in this one) and G'Kar, who really shows his potential here. I love Sakai talking to herself, all sarky, when she gets to Sigma 957 and it all looks fine. And Sakai and Sinclair bickering in the morning; he's being all controlling, but she smacks him down (because she's still independent!) without either of them looking stupid. It's clearly not something they take personally, it's just... how the pair of them are, and I like the level of mutual respect behind it.
G'Kar has some brilliant lines; the "ant" speech, of course, but also his earlier exchange with Sakai - "Why?" "Why not?" "That's not an answer!" "Oh yes it is, it just isn't an answer you expected or wanted." *g*. I also like the way he responds to Sakai's mistrust of him; he's really classy about it, in fact. And it's a genuine honest warning, too; I can't see any real reason for him to do it, beyond what he actually tells her. I'm not sure I'd registered before, but the way it's set up, it looks at first as though G'Kar is setting up a hit on Sakai, and it's not until later that we realise what he's actually doing! Nice setup.
And little things: I don't particularly like the "Garibaldi's having dodgy thoughts about Talia!" scene, but I *do* like how well he takes the punch to the stomach. Ivanova's line to Bester is totally classic: "All the moral fibre of Jack the Ripper. What do you do in your spare time? Juggle babies over burning coals?" *g*. And I'm left wondering, watching Ironheart's destruction, what the insurance must be like on B5! There's always someone blowing up the station...
(...which, um. That's apparently all I have to say about Ironheart? I don't hate him, but... he doesn't do much for me either.)
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Date: 2009-03-09 10:38 am (UTC)Good question. You could make an argument either way. What's his name, Harriman from Eyes, isn't nasty but is a Psi Cop. On the other hand, Bester is perfectly pleasant with Lochley during his first s5 visit, and Lochley is the first station commander to treat him courteously instead of hostile when he shows up. (But then, she has another type of backstory with him.) It's a hen and egg question, I think, with both Psi Cops and "mundanes" bearing some fault.
Though, if I were them, I'm not sure I'd rely on even a Psi Cop's ability to lie to telepaths! It's not a particularly safe game.
Quite. Though as it turns out Bester is really good at lying to other telepaths, considering his secret alliance with Sheridan between late s3 and mid s4.*g*
Like you, I really like the way the Sinclair and Sakai relationship is presented.