"There All the Honor Lies" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 2X14, "There All the Honor Lies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Sheridan gets into trouble when he kills a Minbari in self-defense.

Extra reading:
The article for "There All the Honor Lies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Peter David, it bears repeating is one of those writers who know how to use an ensemble instead of just two or three characters. As with Soul Mates, we get three plots here (or four if you count Sheridan and Kosh as a seperate one) which occasionally intersect, and all of them are entertaining to watch. (Though I have my preferences, which will suprise no one when I get to them.)

To get the nitpick out of the way first: "They're making us sound like some deep space franchise! This station is about something!" Look, guys, I don't care whether this was David or a JMS-insert in the script, but as far as pot shots at Star Trek go, that's a rather hypocritical one. Not because DS9 happens to be a fabulous show, which it is, but because this very episode has a main plot that is directly stolen definitely inspired from Star Trek, that tried-and-true formula of the Captain/First Officer/Other Beloved Member of Crew who gets framed and tried for a crime he/she didn't commit. TOS did, all subsequent Trek shows did it, but let me tell you, none of the subsequent Trek shows stole paid homage so directly as to actually use the "Vulcans Minbari don't lie" line.

Back to the episode. Predictable as the Sheridan-gets-framed plot was, I did enjoy it, and not just because we briefly get to see Julie Caitlin Brown again. (Why oh why couldn't she stay as Na'Toth? That was a rethorical question.) It's good continuity in terms of using Sheridan's backstory and the Minbari resentment again, and it shows that for Sheridan at this stage despite his attraction to Delenn, those issues aren't settled, either; he's awfully quick at first to believe Delenn is involved in the frame job. The casual racism shown towards Delenn from our Minbari guest character made me feel for her in a way Neroon's hostility did not, btw.

Cheap shot aside, the merchandising plot is worth it for the "so you feel yourself symbolically cas---t in a bad light" quip and the teddy bear alone.

But the price for best character scenes, uncontested in my mind, goes to Vir and Londo. Their subplot has the least space and yet manages to pack a lot of punch and do some crucial things regarding both Vir's character and their relationship. It shows Vir's mixed feelings - on the one hand, he suffers under keeping Londo's secrets and the aiding and abetting that goes with this, on the other, he doesn't want to return home because, and this is important to understand what Vir's loyalty to Londo originally was based on, Londo is the first person who actually wants him around, who notices Vir as a person. We see the similarities between them - both originally got their jobs as a joke, out of disregard from others - as well as the differences; Vir, as Londo says much later, did not get cynical as a result. We also see that the relationship goes both ways by now and isn't one sided. (And note how the tone is shifting towards more equality; Vir's "what you want, what they want, how about what I want?" outburst would have been unthinkable for first season Vir.) Londo tries to help not just with the immediate problem (the threat to Vir's job) but the underlying one (disrespect towards Vir from his family and on Centauri Prime). Mind you, I think here he also miscalculates, because the relationship between Vir and his uncle (with descriptions like "swallowed up in silence" and Vir's later "and to find someone who could actually love someone like me" hinting at complete emotional neglect) doesn't sound as if it could be patched up by a visit and Londo praising Vir. But it's good to see him try.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I like Sheridan's "bone on his head" line even though it shocked me when I rewatched the series: JMS doesn't pretend only evil characters can harbour that kind of prejudice.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Irrelevant point:
I'm using ancient British VHS, and was pleased to find that Acts of Sacrifice
/ Hunter, Prey and Knives / Shadow of Z'd were in the correct order (less fast forwarding/ searching around on tapes!).
The I noticed that, this and next week's are the other way round.
How odd... :-)

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

I am killjoy and hate the teddy bear/shop plotline. It seemed to 4th wall breaking (with the stabs at Star Trek). I was glad when they stopped making so many references to other shows. Be who you are; stop worrying about everybody else.

I wish I understood what Kosh was doing with the music. It was a lovely scene, but Kosh's motives are so opaque and so focused on his goal that I wish I understood what this served.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I like this episode overall, on account of how I'm a sucker for Minbari shenanigans (and I would quite like a story where Lennier and Garibaldi FIGHT CRIME), but OMG THE SHOP SUBPLOT. Cheap digs at DS9 aside, I keep thinking, "Man, in another year they'll really be wanting that extra revenue."

[imhilien.livejournal.com]

I did feel for Vir in this episode - now that Londo's star is 'rising' *cough* heading somewhere darker *cough*, Vir is considered an embarrassment that a now-important Londo shouldn't be burdened with. :(

Sheridan is probably feeling like Luke Skywalker being taught by Yoda (Kosh). LOL. I did like the scene where Sheridan ends up hearing the Gregorian chanting. ^_^ Beauty where you least find it and all that.

The final scene with the spaced teddy - bwahaha. Poor Teddy. I think I read somewhere that the bear was actually given to JMS, and so he thought up an appropriate revenge. I could be wrong, though. :-p

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

I sort of feel the merchandising plot had more bite back before there was tons of B5 crap available for sale in real life… not to mention before a series of increasingly pathetic attempts to create spin-offs. Babylon 5 might be ‘about something’, but can the same be said for Legend of the Rangers? And from an in-universe point of view, shouldn’t independent merchants have long since filled the demand for B5 souvenirs?

On the plus side, it does have the ‘Cast- in a bad light’ line, so that’s alright.

Actual plot: It’s a bit thin at times – Sheridan seems a bit too involved in the investigation of his own actions, and Julie Brown’s character seems to disappear for most of the episode. Still, some interesting bits.

Interesting that Earth isn’t willing to exert any real influence to keep Sheridan in command; no doubt while the new regime doesn’t see Sheridan as an active threat, they’re still not above taking an opportunity to see him replaced with someone they know is totally loyal to them.

On Kosh – I’ve never actually minded “Grey 17 is Missing” that much, and that’s mainly because I like the idea that behind all the politics and battles and important people, the station’s also full of weird little secrets that 99% of the station population are completely oblivious to. So I liked the weird Kosh bit here too.

A random thought – Kosh seems to know his way around Down Below. Maybe he’s not that uncommon a sight down there, and that’s why Deuce back in “Grail” thought he could convince people the Vorlons were working with a small-time lurker gang...

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Catching up, and not much to add. The Trek comparisons don't bother me; probably because I first watched B5 ages after both were off the air. It's just not that obvious or bothersome to me.

The shop had some cool ship models, I totally would have bought the bear, and I want to see the Halloween party where everyone comes as 'an alien'.

The 'beauty in the dark' sequence I always thought was foreshadowing for the Lorien sequences on Z'ha'dum. Sheridan has to give up his idea of what's important (symbolized here by his rank) in order to receive a gift; of beauty, of life. It's the same scene, to me. Kosh is asking him 'who are you?' We go back and forth with all the characters discovering what is important; who they are, and what they want. The 'Minbari don't lie' storyline is part of this exploration.

It also echoes the singing of the pak'ma'ra, doesn't it? The idea that beauty comes from the dark, from the least of us, from places we never expect it to.

[kitoky.livejournal.com]

What's the origin of the song that the played for the 'beauty in the dark' sequence? I really love it.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

Well, I didn't watch B5 back in the day... and I never watched any ST aside from TOS back in the 60s when I was in single digits in age so the merch dig doesn't actually come off as a dig to any other show to me. It actually, in the present day would probably remind more people of Lucas and the SW franchise.

The musical thing reminded me of a quote someone made in another show last week (can't remmeber which) about one of those perfect moments in time when everything stops and one lives entirely in that single moment... Honestly, I think Kosh showed him that. And made him pay for it... with something that he made sure to tell the collector was worthless to him, but he protested way too much. Nothing is free in the universe. Ever.