"Sic Transit Vir" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 3X12, "Sic Transit Vir". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Londo arranges a marriage for Vir.

Extra reading:
The article for "Sic Transit Vir" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

This is the rare Centauri episode which, like The War Prayer in s1, I have very mixed feelings about. (As opposed to virtually any other Centauri-centric episode which I love.) Don't get me wrong, there are elements I adore. Foremost of course the Vir, saviour of thousands of Narns revelation - just like Vir to pull this off quietly and to have done something about about all his scruples and remorse. Also Vir and Ivanova having The Talk makes me giggle each time, and the Londo versus Bugs opening sequence is nice slapstick as well. (With some serious character background if you like, because the eight legged insects in Londo's life which really count are obviously far larger sized.) Oh, and Delenn/Sheridan were okay.

But. But. To my mind, the marrying of comedy and seriousness fails, and nowhere is that more evident than in the final scene where Vir says, after a kiss from Lyndisti, "well, which relationship doesn't have its ups and downs". Leaving aside the self conglaturatory stuff in the fourth season finale and A View from the Gallery, this is possibly my most disliked line in the entire show. Because consider: this is the same Vir who after Cartagia displays glee at torturing G'Kar goes from "there must be another way" to "you're right, let's kill him". And now JMS is asking me to believe that he's willing to handwave Lyndisti's killing score and joy in same because she's female, pretty and good at kissing? Great Maker.

Similarly, Londo is over the top with the "a few thousand Narns, congratulations, Vir" thing which does not jive with why he originally sent Vir away to begin with, nor with his s4 reaction to when Vir gets drunk after having killed Cartagia. Londo's line is there so Vir can burst out with the truth, not because the character would say it, just as Vir's last line is there because the rom com elements of the episode needed a punchline in JMS' mind. And it just jars.

In conclusion: an episode about Vir's Narn-saving activities, terrific! A comedy about Vir almost getting married, then not, complete with more detail on Centauri mating habits, bring it on. But merging the two was, in this viewer's idea, not a good solution.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

It's funny you mentioned "The War Prayer", since I was actually reminded of that episode while watching this one - specifically, they both feel like episodes written by someone who understands the broad strokes of the characters but the fine details are all slightly off. I actually ended up checking the Lurker's Guide to confirm that, yes, JMS did write this one.

I don't know, maybe he was just feeling the strain of writing so many big event episodes in a row and this episode ended up rushed or something...

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I was actually reminded of that episode while watching this one - specifically, they both feel like episodes written by someone who understands the broad strokes of the characters but the fine details are all slightly off.

Yes, that's it exactly. And hey, overwork is my explanation for this one on JMS' part, too.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

So, is this a light-hearted comedy with an incredibly out of place subplot about genocide, or is this a serious Vir episode with ocassional humourous scenes? Unfortunatly, the episode tends to lean towards the former. That’s a problem, because while initially Vir’s awkwardness and uncertantly over how to deal with Lyndisty is amusing, it really falls apart once we see her real personality.

Cut the scene where Lyndisty presents Vir with the captive Narn, and the episode works fine – alright, the episode would then lack an explanation for why a Narn attacked Vir, but that’s not as big a plot-hole as “Wait, why is Vir, founder of the Narn underground railroad, willing to even touch Little Miss Eugenic Genocide at the episode’s end?”

Or “So what happened to the Narn after that scene anyway?”

Anyway, cut that scene, and Lyndisty’s just a little… odd, a little too forward for Vir’s tastes, and while prejudiced against Narns, there’s no indication that’s anything other than her paroting conventional Centauri wisdom. With the scene, though… well, the last character we saw with a Narn blood oath against them was Deathwalker, and Lyndisty seems to be cut from the same mold. I mean, hell, Refa starts to look good next to her – bombing Narn could at least be somewhat justified as a military operation in a time of war. You can’t just throw stuff like this out there and forget about it in the very next scene!

(JMS complains on the Lurker’s Guide that the episode trailer gives away too much – if it’s the same trailer that’s on the DVDs, it refers to Lyndisty as “The Butcher of Narn”, and emphasises that aspect of the plot to the expense of everything else. It’s probably a bad sign when the episode trailer manages to focus on the most important part of the story more than the episode itself does…)

Minor notes:

- So, does anyone really have the ‘go to work naked’ dreams? Because I have all the other cliché nightmares – teeth fall out, exam I’m unprepared for, falling, chased by an unseen force - but I’ve never had the naked one, and neither has anyone I know. Does it really exist, or is it as much a TV/Movie thing as “Wake up bolt upright screaming”?

- I do love B5’s continuity sometimes. I’m thinking when Vir fends of the Narn “Damn, Vir gets beaten up a lot this season!”, then next scene he’s commenting on that himself.

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I've had naked-at-work dreams very occasionally.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I've never had any of the other dreams except the naked one... and yes, I have had the 'wake up bolt upright screaming' sort but I have apnea and not breathing will do that to a person now and again.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Dreams: like you, I've had all the other ones but not the "go to work naked" one.

What happened to the Narn: perhaps someone should write the story where that particular Narn turns out to be a projection by Lyndisti, who is really a telepath working for Refa who in retalation to Londo's poisoning from last week wants to get a spy close to Londo and pushed Vir's uncle to accept a protegé as a fiancee. This also explains Vir's ooc behaviour towards her in the last scene - all telepathic mind-messing!

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

I read somewhere that there was a reference in the script to the Narn recovering in Medlab that was cut for time.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I liked the episode I suppose but I agree that Vir's last line was simply in bad taste. The romanctic comedy theme of the episode didn't work with little Hitlerette thrown into the mix. There was certainly nothing funny about her.

And really, what did happen to the Narn on the floor?

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Small belated aside:

I enjoyed the "Londo is afraid of eight-legged creatures" scene, for all its silliness. Is there a subtext there, or am I imagining that (not that I've ever actually counted the "legs" of a Shadow ship...)?


BTW
“So what happened to the Narn after that scene anyway?”

I was on th point of shouting at the screen: come on, Vir, be a man, accept the knife and cut his bonds!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Busy week, so I just got to watch the Third-Dinner-Date-and-Almost-Kiss episode last night. It was great to see again; damn Susan Ivanova to hell.

Flarn is a culinary mystery to me. It sure looks like tofu in this episode.

So I gather from the comments above that there was a Vir story in there too? That's why I follow this re-watch; always learning new things. ;)

This episode falls into the unbalanced category, where JMS seems to want to pull off a complex contradictory story that falls together, and it just doesn't...quite. (War Prayer is another, and we'll see it again in Grey 17, among others. I used to think Shadow Dancing was one, but I've reconsidered.) I liked the attempt to contrast the romantic comedy and epic tragedy, and to some extent I think it worked. Probably because I seem to see Vir differently than the rest of you.

Vir needs to see things, to feel them viscerally, before he accepts the bad. And he always, always, searches for the good. In everyone. He makes excuses, like you would, for someone you like or want very, very much to like. Until he's put up against it, with concrete evidence of his own eyes. Then he can't deny it any more and he does the right thing.

This is why I love him. He wants to believe Lyndisty isn't what she is, or that she can become something better, if she is just shown the way. She's wrong, she'll change, it's her upbringing, etc. The way she describes the horrors is all flowery and innocent (or meant to be; I think it rather fails a bit in the acting). The Narn in the middle of the room is evidence, but nowhere as dramatic as Cartagia presents to Vir later. And if you changed the delivery of that last line a tiny bit, it would work. (Again, I'm second-guessing the acting here.) Lyndisty says nothing about the Narns that we haven't heard from other Centauri, including Londo, and for that matter we've heard the same from G'Kar about Centauri.

It's why he never gives up on Londo. Remember back in Parliament of Dreams, when Vir is telling the story about the other sentient race on Centauri Prime that the massacred? And he's laughing about it? It's ancient history, it never touched him, so it's funny and great because they won. Vir's on a journey, and it's two steps forward, one step back.

Two other asides; the going naked to school/work is a classic anxiety dream. I myself have never had the tooth dream and thank god for it.
Ivanova's romantic advice is the best thing ever. That is all.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Lyndisty does describe enjoying killing Narns, which definitely puts her into Cartagia territory. All the same, I could see a valid storyline of Vir wanting to redeem her, but it would have needed very different writing. For starters, the difference to the Londo situation is that Vir knew Londo before Londo went darkside. He's seen Londo show compassion, bravery, etc.; he knows that Londo is capable of something other than callousness and ambition. Otoh, he doesn't know anything about Lyndisti other than that she's pretty, kisses well and is interested in him. If he had gotten to know her in the course of several episodes, seen her good qualities, THEN found out what she did, I could completely believe him wanting to blame her upringing, hoping she'll change etc. (And even then the "what relationship doesn't have its ups and downs" line would feel ooc.) As it is, his behaviour doesn't make him look good-hearted, it makes him look way too naive for this point of the show at best and incredibly shallow at worst. And that's just not Vir.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

See, there's that fundamental disconnect again. To my mind, Londo hasn't shown many real redeeming qualities, so Vir is naive about him, and so he can also be so about Lyndisty. And being told about killing Narns, in starry-eyed poetry mode (which is horrible to hear) is just different than actually seeing blood-stained hands or a neuro-whipping as with Cartagia. Plus, I think being bowled over by the possibility of a woman who could love him, and a family who may finally be recognizing his worth, not to mention the sexual aspects, would be very, very heady stuff for Vir.

It would have been much better as a spread out story, and much better if there had been more subtle layers to the story and especially to Vir's last comment. This is YMMV territory, I'm afraid.