"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?" Discussion

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

Apologies for the late post! Sunday kicked this mod's butt and my Monday schedule is not helpful for catching up on stuff I missed Sunday.

This is the discussion post for the episode 4X02 "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?" Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
G'Kar tries to avoid capture by the Centauri while continuing his search. Delenn urges the Rangers to strike against the Shadows.

Extra reading:
The article for "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?" at The Lurker's Guide.

Comments

Everyone else

[selenak.livejournal.com]

"You have pical envy" is probably my favourite Marcus line in the entire show. The scenes with him and G'kar are both touching and amusing, though Marcus leaving just in time for G'Kar be alone when he gets captured feels somewhat artificial. But then again, G'Kar needs to be alone because otherwise we might not get absolutely awesome and fantastic Londo/G'Kar scenes on Centauri Prime, so I'm okay with that.

To make an effort: I believe there is a plot with Sheridan and some Lorien guy going on? Okay then, my two cents: I get we're in Sheridan's mind, and visualizing this is a bit tricky without coming across as hokey. But even outside of personal preferences, I think JMS pulled it off better when it's Londo's mind in The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari, not least because Londo is allowed to snark about the metaphors getting a bit thick, and talk back to the various mind versions of the people he meets there, whereas Sheridan basically gets lectured by Lorien. Now I have a problem with the very concept of Lorien as a deus ex machina, but I'll get to that when we get to Into the Fire. For now: Lorien as the granddad, mother and father of Shadows and Vorlons both isn't a bad concept in theory. In execution, it demands that we accept this new character's infinite wisdom and benevolence, and the knowledge he offers in return - Sheridan needs something worth living for, not just worth dying for - isn't exactly big news. Mind you, Delenn being Sheridan's reason to live is at least something of a balance to Delenn being suicidal over at the station until Franklin plays Sheridan's log entries to her, which makes it look less gender-clichéd. I'm still not very happy with it. On the bright side, it's over by the end of this episode, and Delenn is back on her feet.

Meanwhile, on Centauri Prime, aka I, Claudius in space continues: I so love every single scene in this plot thread to bits, no matter how often I rewatch. Cartagia continues to be menacing, entertaining and chilling at the same time; while one is still smiling about the whole "pain technicians" thing there's the punch in the stomach about G'Kar's blood being poured away with the water to feed the flowers.

(Sidenote: for those of us keeping count, the ex Catholic in JMS goes in overdrive with the imagery in this plot thread. In this episode alone we get G'Kar tied up in a cross like position (more of that to come in future eps), Cartagia washing his hands of him, and the crown of thorns (sort of).)

Vir going from "maybe there should be another way" to "let's kill him!" makes Cartagia one of two people (the other being Morden) Vir actively wants to see dead, and aside from emphasizing Cartagia's viciousness, it also shows Vir is not saintly beyond belief. And capable of being ruthless if he thinks it necessary, though as we'll see it'll cost him.

One more thing about Cartagia: he's in a cat playing with mouse mode in his scenes with Londo, but as much as he can, I think he does like Londo. However you define "like".

Re: Everyone else

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

The one thing I do think Lorien is justified by is that he provides a textual answer to the Vorlons' attitude in Comes the Inquisitor - the Vorlons treat Sheridan and Delenn's love as something for him to die for, while Lorien explicitly makes it something to live for.

Re: Everyone else

[selenak.livejournal.com]

True enough, and that's also where the casting pays off. However, I still think his inner Kosh remnant could have fulfilled the same function (rounding off their mentor/protegé relationship), which would have spared us Lorien.

Londo and G'Kar

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Londo and G'Kar, G'Kar and Londo: the first on screen scenes with the two of them together in the same room since Dust to Dust are so worth waiting for, and make me think Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas are gods of acting every single time. Londo's changing expression when G'Kar is brought to the throne room alone. And then that conversation in the cell, oh, that conversation. As with the agreement about Refa's death which we didn't see, there is an incredible amount of trust on both sides on display without the two ever acknowledging as much. Londo is confessing to high treason to someone who could, were he not G'Kar, use that to improve his status with his captors, if not bargain for his freedom, or at least to condemm Londo at the same time; G'Kar is trusting the man who started the Narn/Centauri war to keep a promise made under duress which goes against all that man has done so far. And it works, because it was always incredibly personal between them. Note that G'Kar's first reaction to the news of the Centauri attack in Coming of Shadows wasn't "those dammn Centauri are at it again!" but "He betrayed me!".

Asking G'Kar's help against Cartagia demands incredible gall; so does asking Londo for the withdrawal from Narn. And not despite but because of the dark history between them, they do it and make it work. The emotional intimacy there is breathtaking. And there are so many layers. I think my favourite moment is when G'Kar says "you didn't ask about the price", Londo turns back and says "you're not exactly in a position to bargain, G'Kar". Because of the tone of challenge, wonder and amusement there; I think part of Londo is relieved because if G'Kar can make demands in the condition he's in, then he really is strong enough to withstand the horrors waiting.

Also: back in Dust to Dust, G'Kar when in Londo's mind said "how does it feel to be victim? Does it make you understand what we're going through?" But the way it works with Londo Mollari is the other way around. It's not suffering abuse himself, it's seeing G'Kar suffer abuse that brings fully home to Londo the need to change.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

So. Lorien. Gets on one’s nerves after a while, yes? Possibly this is all some sort of method to anger Sheridan back to life by subjecting him to hours of pseudo-deep philosophical babbling, but I doubt it. The question I find myself asking is does Lorien actually give a crap about the younger races? He’s all ‘it’s terrible when your children fight’, and he’s interested in Sheridan personally, but he seems rather blasé about the collateral damage caused by his ‘children’, and doesn’t seem to have actually made any effort to intervene… well, you know, ever. He comes across as not so different from the Vorlons or the Shadows, refusing to assist unless someone satisfactorily answers his questions and follows his philosophy.

(One wonders if Lorien would pass his own test – does *he* have anything worth living for? He’s apparently spent the last few million years doing nothing other than sulking at the core of Z’ha’dum…)

Rest of the episode – well, not a lot to say about the Londo scenes that hasn’t already been said. One thing I always like in this arc is the quick shifts from humor to darkness – Londo’s brilliant contrived explanation for why Cartagia should not execute him leading directly into G’Kar’s arrival in chains – which, of course is great because Cartagia himself is all about sudden and unsettling mood shifts.

I do find it kind of amusing that Centauri guards apparently wear bright red-and-gold uniforms wherever they go.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

What do you mean, after a while - he didn't get on your nerves from the get go? *veg*

I think if we had some indication Lorien was actually not conscious through the millennia and Sheridan woke him up, we'd avoid the very problem you address - why didn't he do anything before? Of course, this brings me to one of my general Lorien problems; I was completely with Garibaldi when from the next ep onwards he questions why they should trust and believe Lorien unhesitatingly, but annoyingly is simultanously signalled to be untrustworthy himself due to brainwashing, which means the counter-Lorien argument is devalued by a narrative trick. But more about that once we get to ep 4.


One thing I always like in this arc is the quick shifts from humor to darkness – Londo’s brilliant contrived explanation for why Cartagia should not execute him leading directly into G’Kar’s arrival in chains – which, of course is great because Cartagia himself is all about sudden and unsettling mood shifts.

Yes. It also showcases that Londo, when pressed to a wall, actually is great at improvisation (and using courtier/political skills). Up to this point in the show, we've never seen him without support in critical situations, whether it's by Our Heroes (freeing Adira with Sinclair's help) or the villains (getting the Eye back via Morden, and the Shadow vessels available to fight Narn with a season later). In his scenes with Cartagia, he's usually (one or two times with Vir excepted) alone, and has to survive based on nothing but his wits.

[beatrice_otter]

Or it's possible that he was restrained in some way, and Sheridan's big bang broke the prison.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I just finished watching S4 recently. I must admit that I do not understand the current hostility toward Lorien. I really don't.

[rpowell.livejournal.com]

I think if we had some indication Lorien was actually not conscious through the millennia and Sheridan woke him up, we'd avoid the very problem you address - why didn't he do anything before? Of course, this brings me to one of my general Lorien problems;


Why do so many of you expect Lorien to take charge and do something? What if that is not his role?

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Well, the problem is Lorien does do things in the next few episodes, and apparently purely of his own free will, not because Sheridan persuades him to take action.

The Sigma 957 First Ones, for example, don't do anything, and that's fine because it's clear they don't care about anyone else - but Lorien does seem to care, does want to end the Shadow War. So there really does need to be an explanation for why he didn't, say, help Valen persuade the Shadows and Vorlons to leave...

[imhilien.livejournal.com]

Another good episode, especially with Londo/G'kar.

Others have mentioned their scenes, but I will say one of the images that sticks with me, is when Londo leaves G'kar's cell and the light falls on a G'kar who is pleased to have found a way to save his own world...

While it is good to see Garibaldi again, it is sad to see him a prisoner of the Psi-Cops, frustrated and shouting (as you would be) in that claustrophic looking cell. :( *hugs Garibaldi*

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah - G'Kar seems to merit a bigger cell than Garibaldi!

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Makes sense since Cartagia isn't interested in brainwashing G'Kar. :) (Also, as s5 reveals, cells in the Royal Palace might have been built with the awareness the occasional Centauri VIP might end up in them as well for a while. When Psi Corps locks you up to get Manchurian Candidated, otoh, they don't expect you to be in a position to complain later...