"Into the Fire" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 4X06 "Into the Fire". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
The Army of Light mount their final assault against both the Shadows and the Vorlons.

Extra reading:
The article for "Into the Fire" at The Lurker's Guide.

Comments

I. Giants in the playground

[selenak.livejournal.com]

And thus it ends. Well, the Shadow/Vorlon part of it. I have a love/hate relationship with the resolution, which didn't change upon rewatching. On the plus side, I still appreciate, and always have done, the crucial twist from the Lord of the Rings type of scenario which it seemed to be at first: that the Shadow versus Vorlons conflict isn't Good versus Evil, but an ideological conflict to which there is no "good" answer, that both sides are bastards, and that refusing to be their cannon fodder any more, refusing to fight their war, is a part of the response. I find this much preferable to the way the comparable DS9 conflict between Prophets and Pagh Wraiths is presented, because there we're supposed to accept the Prophets' quintessential goodness while a couple of pretty revolting actions on their part (including rape) is handwaved. Here, the early signs that the Vorlons aren't really wonderful benevolent divine beings (the fact they keep Jack the Ripper around to "test" candidates being a huge case in point) are really meant as such, and not something we have to accept in the service of the greater good.

On the minus side, and this still sticks in my throat, no matter how often I rewatch: if your narrative positions that the solution to a war between your parents is to reject them both/ a war between gods is decided by ending the blind following of either side and turn your back on both (depending whether you go with the psychological or mythical approach), then making granddad/ an all-wise divine entity the saviour really goes against what you're trying to do. To clarify: I can see why Sheridan & Co. defeating Shadows and Vorlons on a military basis, after all the emphasis on how dangerous their planet-eating weapons are, would have been wrong both in terms of ideological position (it would have proved the Shadows' point, btw) and plausibility. But that still doesn't mean I can see Lorien as the literal deus ex machina as anything but a lazy, lazy plot device.

And now brace yourself: one scene I DO appreciate about Lorien. To wit, his exchange with Ivanova - that only when you're mortal you really believe love is forever. That line is the one time Lorien really sells me on being someone who has lived forever, who really is for all practical purposes immortal.

II. Centauri

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Meanwhile, on Centauri Prime: I wonder whether Londo would have left Morden alive (just forcibly removed from the planet) if not for the Adira revelation and am still not sure. He's certainly ruthless enough to regard killing Morden as the quicker resolution, and he's not exactly fond of him before that already, but otoh, he's not a gratitious killer, and just sitting Morden in a shuttle with armed guards would have done the trick. After being told about Adira, though, that definitely isn't a question any more, and Vir gets his wish. It's the one time we see Morden entirely lose his cool, and the second time (after And the rock cries out, no hiding place) we see Londo in cold calculating mode; it's also a scene rich in tragic irony, as Londo getting the better of the Shadows and Morden both is what ultimately condemms him to the Keeper. (Morden is the obvious candidate for "the one who is already dead", and I think londonkds is right - if Londo had gotten rid of the Shadows but kept Morden alive, Morden would have spilled the beans about the Drakh out of sheer indignation of being left behind when the Shadows left with the Vorlons.)

Sidenote: it's also the one death we see Vir not only not regret but be satisfied by, which I find fascinating, because objectively speaking, Morden isn't a monster the way Cartagia was. It probably comes down to Vir hating Morden for Londo's trip to the dark side, which isn't rational (Morden might have provided the opportunity, but Londo made the choices), but very psychologically plausible.

Speaking of death, and Vir: Londo asking Vir to kill him when the Vorlons show up is another of those heart-stopping scenes, because of what it says about them both. Both that Londo doesn't hesitate to offer his life for his world and that he asks this of Vir and trusts Vir would do it, despite this being the most horrible thing anyone could ask of Vir.

Lastly: loved the hug between them at the end, of course. Awww, Vir and Londo.

[ufgator1977.livejournal.com]

I, too, am very glad to see the Shadow War come to a close. I really didn't like the whole Lorien bit and the whole thing was a bit anticlimatic to me. I never saw the necessity for the First Ones being there other than their ability to take out the planet killer. Then,again, maybe I'm too simplistic in my expectations. This is JMS, after all. He did say he wanted the "what now?" reaction. I was just glad to move on from it. At least I got to see ol' John "Nuke 'em" Sheridan do his thing.

The Centauri arc was certainly the best part about these first few episodes. I realized that Londo would probably blow all his chances to avoid his future but it was still difficult ot watch. One thing for sure, he'll do anything to save the Centauri and I love him for that.

Now we get to head into my favorite part of Season 4.

[beatrice_otter]

Okay, something I would not have noticed without the benefit of a theological education that emphasized traditional cosmologies (so we could learn to look at traditional theology and disentangle how they are connected with worldviews that may or may not still be current: in most traditional cosmologies, things started out good and then degenerate. In classical Greek mythology you have an age of gold, followed by the age of silver, followed by the age of bronze. Or in Judeo-Christian thought, you have Eden followed by the Fall, and things degenerate from there. Lorien's description of how his race didn't age and die, but future generations did? Perfect fit.

I really, really like the intelligence guy. And I wonder if his timing here is on purpose: he tells this to Londo right as they are trying to destroy the Shadow influence, and this is giving Londo more incentive to wipe out every single Shadow thing. Not that he really needed it, but this has wiped out any lingering affinity he might have.

Morden's reaction makes me wonder what kind of connection he has to the Shadows. Also, yeah, sure, the Shadows' allies can make Centauri Prime pay, but it's still better than the Vorlons wiping out the entire planet.

The battle scenes ... meh. Though I do like Lyta's performance here. I think Lorien would be much less annoying if Sheridan had given some of his exposition during the final confrontation.

Vir in the garden with Morden's head--awesome as always. And then the scene with him and Londo, and Londo begging him to kill him ... eee.

Again, effective use of light and shadow for dramatic effect that lets you cheap out on special effects and sets.

After having waited four seasons to finally hear a Shadow speak for itself and not through an intermediary, it would have been nice to have something a little more impressive than a three year old asking Daddy to hold its hand while walking in the dark.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I really, really like the intelligence guy. And I wonder if his timing here is on purpose:

Ohhhh, that's an intriguing thought, and I can see that. After all, Intelligence Guy is not suicidal and presumably wants both the planet and himself to survive once the Vorlons show up, so yes, giving Londo additional motivation is in his best interest.

Morden's reaction: given that the Shadows were able to heal him from the effects of a nuclear blast, I always wondered whether this involved some kind of life source sharing, a variation of what Lorien does with Sheridan, though it would be more like the Shadows to simply use up a few unfortunate minions instead of themselves. Still, if the Shadows transfered healing energy into Morden's body, it might have left a physical sense of connection. However, that's really not necessary to explain his reaction, imo. Until this point, Morden's self assurance, even when Sheridan had him interrogated and locked up, was always bolstered by the fact these superbeings more powerful than anyone else were right next to him. The moment Londo has the Shadows with Morden killed and presses the button, Morden is alone and without back-up for the first time since the Icarus came to Z'ha'dum.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Sorry I wasn’t here last week, been so busy I didn’t have a chance all week to sit down and watch an episode. Not that it really matters – hell of a pair of episodes to catch up with!

Just a brief comment on “The Long Night” specifically – I’ve always loved the quote from Tennyson at the end. Nice little way of working a reference to Sinclair into the end of the Shadow War arc.

Of course, the problem with these two episodes is the Centauri plot so completely overshadows everything else it’s really hard to care about Sheridan and the rest. The ‘Hell yeah!” moment of this arc isn’t “Get the hell out of our galaxy!”, it’s Morden’s shock as Londo takes out his associates and blows up Celini. Of course, the Centauri plot benefits from not having Lorien.

As I’ve said before, I’d be a lot less irritated with Lorien if he either had to be persuaded into helping Sheridan or forced into leaving himself. As it is… he’s a smug little deus ex machina who comes across no more sympathetic to the younger races than the Vorlons or Shadows. Listen to him idly wondering if “Sheridan knows if he knows”, while twelve billion lives hang in the balance, the whole situation purely an intellectual puzzle for him. One can’t help but suspect if Sheridan had failed, Lorien would have been quite happy to go back to sleep for another few thousand years. Would have been so much more satisfying to have someone slap him and force him to recognise the reality of what’s been going on, that he bears some responsibility for letting his former students get completely out of control, force him to take a stand as Kosh did.

Seriously – the only reason he’s even at Coriana VII is because Ivanova refused to be left behind. He seemed quite happy to lounge about on B5.

Plus, as Beatrice_otter pointed out, his immortality seems to imply a Hesiod-style decline and decay cosmology. That kind of undercuts the ending – you can’t have “Now we make our own magic!” if the Golden Age of Man is long since vanished, the Silver Age is ended, and while the Heroic Age might give a last glimmer of glory, in the end we’re doomed to the degeneration and cruelty of the Age of Iron. I’m going to side with Ivanova and assume he’s lying through his teeth to make himself sound special.

Eh, I’m being too negative. I don’t mind the episode, and it’s a clever way to resolve Armageddon by refusing to take sides. I just wish the whole episode was up to the quality of the Centauri plot.

Odd thought – in this episode and “The Long Night”, we see Sheridan sacrifice people and have people sacrifice themselves for him, but it’s Londo who’s actively willing to die himself for his people. Of course, Sheridan’s already sacrificed himself – and, amusingly, it was also partially to save Centauri Prime – but it is an odd contrast.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, you can draw a direct parallel between Celini and Ranger Erickson & crew - Londo says those who remained on Celini volunteered in order to trick the Shadows, but he must have asked them to, just like Sheridan asks Erickson. ("You're not a married man, are you?" has to count as the least subtle request ever. BTW, given Sheridan's statement to Bester in Rising Star about having made sure the teeps he used as weapons to defeat Clark were single and without family, not being married certainly lessons your survival chances in Sheridan's employ...)

Now you're making me wonder about Lorien on Centauri Prime. Which has the opportunity for some really black comedy because I can imagine Cartagia wrinkle his nose and declare that if that's how you look once you're a divine immortal being and revered by everyone else in the galaxy, he'll make sure to request the Shadows preserve his looks as well when they make him a God. And Londo wondering whether one could blackmail the Shadows and/or the Vorlons by holding Lorien hostage.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I've been busy with family duties, but thought I'd check back in to see what's going on...

Apparently I'm still watching some other version of B5 than the rest of you. Your version is interesting, mind you. The commentary just makes me feel at times like I've gone down the rabbit hole. So just a few points.

Lorien just simply fascinates me. He's the ultimate in detached and dispassionate observation. All the giants/ants/etc. metaphors apply to him in spades. He has his own agenda here. He's there merely to prod Sheridan towards the answer without telling him what it is, to gather up his errant children, and to facilitate communication at the end. The game has gone on too long; the point has been lost, the rules, such as they were, have been broken. Time to pack up and go home. He doesn't take responsibility because he doesn't feel any. Maybe a little, at the end, but not much. And any responsibility he feels is as much towards the Vorlons and Shadows as to the others. The perspective of millions of years lends distance, to say the least. His talk with Susan is one of my favorite bits. 'A remarkable illusion' That's just great.

The First Ones aren't there to fight particularly; they are there to join the exodus. That's Lorien's reason for bringing them along anyway. I've been trying to remember--I'm pretty sure the idea to bring them into the war was Delenn's initially, and so possibly Kosh's. If so, I wonder what the Vorlons envisioned the other First Ones as doing in the war, or whether they just wanted them to choose sides, or ensure their neutrality or what?

If Londo was serious about sacrificing himself why didn't he grab a weapon from a guard and kill himself? He's not ready yet, not really. Still in denial as to his own culpability. And it would have killed Vir to do it, so I'm glad he didn't have to. Not seeing the nobility in our Londo here. His ultimate moment comes later.

As for the Golden Age, they are just starting it now. Childhood, adolescence, adulthood. The younger races are the adults now, and responsible for their own destinies.

The thing I keep coming back to is that JMS was trying for something really big here. He falls short, in a lot of ways. It's unsatisfying and inconsistent in places. But I have to admire the attempt.