"Legacies" discussion [spoilers]

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 1X17, "Legacies". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:

Neroon and Delenn fight over the body of a Minbari war leader while Ivanova and Talia argue about the future of a 14-year-old telepath.

Extra reading:

The article for "legacies" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[likeadeuce.livejournal.com]

I felt like this episode really stepped it up a notch. I enjoyed the look into the different sides of Minbari culture -- is this the first time the religious/warrior conflict is really spelled out -- and the look at the more Machiavellian side of Delenn. It's also interesting to see Delenn as someone who isn't instantly assumed to be on the side of the good, which is a dynamic that changes when Sheridan shows up, I think.

I also like Talia and Susan's story a lot, though I was a bit thrown by the force of the anti-Narn sentiment that Alisa expressed, and the others seemed to condone.

[shapinglight]

This is just a terrific episode. My B5 knowledge is now so sketchy that I can't even remember when Neroon turns up again (can't wait to find out), but I love the way this show was slowly building things right from first knockings.

And the first time we see Delenn's crystal construction, and hear the word 'chrysalis', plus more UST (in retrospect) between Ivanova and Talia.

B5 really was ahead of its time.

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

Love, love this ep, especially Neroon. I like especially that he's acting out of love and devotion, not a desire to make things bad for our heroes, and his apology and discussion with Sinclair at the end.

Also, when I was watching it with a couple of friends, one of them squeed, "Alisa has two mommies!" and I was all, "Yeah, totally, you have no idea." *grin*

Too bad that I can't stand Alisa's actress. Her delivery is just too stilted.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Alright, this is the first episode I’ve really enjoyed since “Signs and Portents”. We get Neroon, who’s always fun, Minbari internal intrigue, something which doesn’t really get dealt with much after the first season, and reminder that Delenn is not to be trusted.

Neroon’s pretty much the closest thing we get to an outright Minbari villain in the series, and certainly here he’s being... difficult. But I end up sympathising with him more than Delenn. Bramner had, after all, remained in the warrior caste after the war – and Neroon had served him for fifteen years. Can Delenn really claim to know what his wishes were better than Neroon? Not to mention that even if she was in the right, is that enough to justify the diplomatic firestorm she sets off? And her plan to cover it all up by inventing a false story of a religious miracle… If Branmer had not wanted his body displayed publically, I hardly think he’d have found that a more acceptable fate!

That’s nice, actually – Delenn, I feel, slipped a little too far into being unalloyed good in later seasons. It’s far more interesting if her motivations are occasionally a little more dubious or self-serving. And I feel sorry for Neroon, being forced to go along with the lie after being threatened with his entire clan being dishonoured for his actions.

Which brings us to plot b, which I felt was a bit weaker, due to a, yet another sub-par B5 guest actor, b, yet another retelling of Ivanova’s backstory (Yes, I know, this episode wasn’t meant to go back-to-back with Eyes. It doesn’t make it any less dull to hear it again), and c, possibly the most blatant attempt to paint the Narn as villains in the entire series. Of course, Dr. Franklin does say there aren’t any humans resident on Narn, and it wouldn’t surprise me if most of Earth’s knowledge of the Regime is coming via Centauri sources, so I’m going to feel free to ignore most of the claims made here.

And let’s face it, Minbar may be shinier, but the Minbari aren’t exactly nice people to live among either. They may not conquer and enslave – that’s because they prefer outright genocide when someone’s bothering them. They’ve got a caste system, a largely unaccountable government, and seem to have far less respect for individual self-determination than human societies... I have to admit, I would be very sceptical of any society that considers telepathy – an innate trait - a ‘calling’, and assume those ‘called’ will wish to devote their lives to serving society with it… Hell, if I were in Alisa’s position, I’d probably end up picking the Corps – at least it’d be easier to escape and hide on Earth if I changed my mind…

Minor notes:

- Again, nice to see Sinclair putting pieces of the puzzle together. He knows he won’t get another opportunity to talk to someone who’s scanned Delenn’s mind, and he jumps on it.

- Alisa’s religion is listed in her file as Obeah. Odd choice; I hadn’t heard of it until I looked it up now. (It’s Caribbean, similar to Voodoo.)

- Garibaldi mentions the Lort as being packrats. They’re the guys that kind of look like armadillos, yes? Always nice to learn a little about the League species.

- You’d think someone in the ten years since the war would have made sure every officer in Earth Force was well aware of Minbari protocol regarding open gun ports.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I rewatched this ten days ago as I knew I would be on the road by the time it came along, so, out of recent memory:

After the dry spell of the last three eps, this one really is top notch B5 again. Both the Minbari main plot and the telepath sub plot are compelling, though I agree the actress who plays Alisa could be better.

This is the debut of Neroon on the show and the first episode to really showcase (after the pilot) the warrior/ religious caste divide. Upon rewatching, it strikes me, as it does likeadeuce, that the ambigous way this episode presents Delenn really wouldn't be done during the Sheridan days (where she's automatically assumed to be good), at least not during seasons 2 and 3; season 4 will bring back Delenn's ambiguity and that of Neroon (who spends most of his guest appearances during s2 and 3 being presented in a negative light), and lets Neroon end up a hero. I'm also somewhat influenced by deborah_judge's and eyeofcat's fanfiction in that Delenn's certainty that she knows what Bramner would have wanted, and that her way is the right way is really incredibly arrogant; Bramner did, after all, make the choice to switch castes from religous to warrior. No wonder Neroon behaves just as arrogant and hostile towards her in s2 once she's out of the Grey Council, whose authority she here throws in his face.

With hindsight: which makes the Delenn/Neroon reconciliation in s4, their shared plan to end the Minbari civil war and Neroon's sacrifice, which includes another caste switch, all the more poignant and a great end to wrap up that particular storyline, because it could be said many of the seeds for the Minbari civil war are sown here.

Shallow comment: why isn't there more Delenn/Neroon or in fact any Delenn/Neroon? They have terrific chemistry, and he challenges her the way neither of the other men in her life do.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Um, I've written one. It was posted locked, cause it was about the first NC-17 piece I ever wrote, but I'm past worrying about that now. It's not Legacies related, but pre-S1.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

A link, please? I would look myself but I'm travelling, which means little online time...

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I am not very good at putting links in comments, but here goes. Hopefully it'll work even if it's not pretty.

http://vjs2259.livejournal.com/7067.html#cutid1

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Thank you! *mems für future reading, as online time is short again*

[wychwood]

You can just copy and paste a link in, if you're having real trouble, you know! But the HTML isn't too difficult - it's just:

< a href="link">link text< /a> (without the spaces after the < )

So < a href="http://vjs2259.livejournal.com/7067.html">Here is a story about Neroon and Delenn< /a> becomes Here is a story about Neroon and Delenn.

There's a FAQ that explains the common bits of markup here, which may be useful to keep around :)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Legacies is one of my favorite S1 episodes.

I like Delenn in Satai mode. She's arrogant and ruthless. So many lovely pointers to Minbari society and unanswered questions. I wondered at Neroon declaring Branmer to be 'the best of us'. The best of the Warrior caste, or is he challenging the usual 'Dukhat was the best of us' belief? How well did Delenn know Branmer, and for how long? Is a request like Branmer's for a quiet funeral some sort of cultural imperative? Was Delenn's action personal or political?

Delenn's putting Neroon in his place is a lovely counterpoint to his later elevation to the Council after her ejection. This is part of the tug of war between the two (eventually three) castes, and it shows even more that things are out of balance. Neroon has every right to feel she is overbearing, and later that she is a zealot and possibly power mad. He doesn't get the full measure of her until much, much later. They are wonderful whenever they are together.

Alisa made the right choice I think, because at least with the Minbari, she could always change her mind. And a life of service is not a bad thing. PsiCorps doesn't offer many options, Susan was right there, and escape would be uncertain at best.

Interesting too that being in a Minbari mind, unlike the Narn, was no problem for Alisa. "It would seem we have more in common..."

It's revealing that Talia didn't just report the child to the Corps. She would be within her rights, and probably expected to. Is there no Child Welfare in the Earth Alliance? Alisa seemed very young (14?) to be given that much leeway to make her own life choices.

I got a chill watching Delenn build the thing, unremarked and unexplained, in Sinclair's presence, and then hearing Alisa tell Sinclair about the one word--'chrysalis'.

[lazulidragon.livejournal.com]

I've been looking forward to this episode, I love Neroon! I like how he gets to play the more relatable side of the warrior caste, so he may trash Sinclair's quarters and beat Marcus nearly to death, but it's always because he's doing what he thinks will be best or just for the Minbari, rather like Delenn. I love how his first apearence concerns a guy who switched from the religious caste to the warrior caste, and his last is his own switch from warrior to religious. And I, too, liked seeing Delenn do something less-than-perfect, and have it actually come across as a little suspect

Interesting that Neroon never heard of the pak'ma'ra before, though.

The strong Narn hate seemed really odd. I mean, okay, I get that they're still sort of "villains" and trouble-makers at this point, and I get that their rabid grabs for power and money aren't that endearing, and I get that they look sort of like lizards, but come on! At least they were friendly/self-serving enough to sell Earth weapons when the Centauri wouldn't, if I recall correctly.

In retrospect, I'm wondering how I ever managed to miss that Susan and Talia were interested in each other. Too young, not enough internet, I guess.

I wonder how the Minbari will deal with Alisa's kleptomania. Not well, I'd imagine.

When Delenn is working on her transformation machine, it always looks like she's playing blocks with a bunch of angle rules and technical drawing equipment. This has always amused me.

[kel-1970.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't think I can put it better than anyone else already has here: it's a great episode for S1, but has many of the flaws common to the show.

Interesting things -- well, everyone else has already mentioned these: Minbari political intrigue, commentary on many of the races, and talk about different ways telepaths are dealt with.

Had we heard, before this episode, that Narns don't have telepaths? Wait, was that in "The Gathering?" Yes, that's it.

I have to get my two cents in about REALLY loving seeing Delenn's sneaky side. I mean, really sneaky! She did a number on Neroon, and manipulated the hell out of pretty much everyone else too. IMO that's the single most pleasing thing about this episode.

I was actually wondering if, when Alyssa was "peeking" in Delenn's mind (which Delenn obviously knew was happening) if Delenn possibly gave her a "suggestion" to go with the Minbari option. That was my read on why Alyssa might have chosen Minbar. Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? (OK, just dated myself there.)

I totally agree with 4thofeleven (sorry, I don't know how to put in those nifty icons in a comment) on the inherent dissonance between the fact that telepathy is an inborn trait vs. the claim that telepathy is a "calling" on MInbar. Very problematic.

One final thing I really enjoy about rewatching S1 is hearing how differently Mira Furlan "does" Delenn's accent and speech patterns. In S1, there is much more to Delenn's ways of pronouncing English consonants than can be accounted for by a Serbo-Croatian accent. In later seasons, these characteristics are damped down quite a bit. I'll keep an ear open for whether it happens gradually, or whether it happens all at once post-metamorphosis.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

...telepathy is an inborn trait vs. the claim that telepathy is a "calling" on Minbar.

I don't think it is "versus".
What is meant I believ is that those who are born as telepaths are led (by society) to see this as a calling, to which they will then dedicate their lives.
Says a lot about Minbari Society, IMHO, and not all good; quite in keeping with the tenets of a caste system, and also with some other observations made here recently.

BTW, did I hear a reference to *two* Minbari castes a few episodes ago, or was I dreaming that?

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Yes, in "Grail", Lennier says that there are two Minbari castes, the religious and the warrior, which implies that he doesn't consider the workers relevant in a description of Minbari society or culture... Understandable; they don't seem to play any role in shaping Minbari policy - we've never heard about what their position on the Earth-Minbari war was, for example...

I always thought it a shame we never got a major Worker-caste character, get an idea of just how happy they are to be in what is clearly a subservient role compared to the other two castes, which seem to be on more of an equal footing. I always thought it was significant that we never hear of someone switching castes either to or from the Worker-caste.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"which implies that he doesn't consider the workers relevant in a description of Minbari society or culture."

Or that JMS hadn't made up the three caste structure yet.

They are certainly equal members of the Grey Council by S2.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

It's so explicit, I think JMS changed his mind before season 2...

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

We're used to thinking he had it all planned out, but the plans did change. Without the worker caste, you had to have either the religious or warrior caste 'win' or battle to a draw. This gave him his elegant 'out' of S4.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Yes, in "Grail"

Oh thanks, I watched a few all in one go late a night and got confused...

Interesting in this light how things turn out for the workers in S4 then :-)
Definitely an advance from not existing...

I agree, it's a shame we never properly meet one.

[wychwood]

(sorry, I don't know how to put in those nifty icons in a comment)

If you're talking about linking the name as 4thofeleven rather than just 4thofeleven, it's a really easy bit of LJ markup: you just type
< lj user="username"> (without the space after the first bracket). So < lj user="kel_1970"> will show up as kel_1970.

There's a FAQ page that explains it here, and a more general one on how to do things like links here - handy to bookmark and keep around!

[imhilien.livejournal.com]

A good episode to watch, and Delenn was definitely busy behind the scenes!

Sinclair certainly made sure he had a final 'chat' with the telepath, but I couldn't really blame him trying to find out any extra information...

I thought it was ironic that as he pondered the meaning of 'Chrysalis' from Delenn's mind, the answer in a way is staring right at us with the contraption Delenn is putting together in her quarters.

The first time I saw this series, I thought it was some kind of Minbari logic puzzle. ;)

[wychwood]

I didn't like this as much as most of you guys seem to have done! I did like the Minbari twistiness, though; Delenn is seriously sneaky here. I got rather annoyed with Sinclair and Garibaldi for not pointing out to Neroon that it was his guards who'd fallen down on the job (Neroon refused access to the area to any non-Minbari, how are the humans to blame??). The internal politics are also very interesting, and a good set-up for what happens later on (particularly with Neroon himself, who is always an interesting antagonist).

Like likeadeuce, I was a bit surprised by all the anti-Narn stuff. I can buy it if we're talking just about the inside of their heads, because maybe they are that different, but even at this point they aren't purely enemy characters! It seemed an oddly casual xenophobia that I hadn't expected from B5.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Maybe that is because casual xenophobia is actually quite a deep-rooted thing, and B5 is a rather realistic universe?

[wychwood]

It's still kind of poor form from a diplomat (which Sinclair is). We're not talking about personal feelings, this is people talking publicly, and to casual visitors, and that did bother me.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Odd, I always think of Sinclair as a military man drafted to be a diplomat. He grows into the job, of course.

Also this is not long after Ragesh 3. I imagine a lot of people weren't enthused over the Narn's conduct there.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Yes, he's definitely military.

He's got quite good at diplomacy, but he's fallible. He's not always been totally polite to the Minbari either, and that conflict is a lot longer ago than events on Ragesh 3.

In general, his behavious towards the Narn is a lot better than Londo's, who *is* supposed to be a diplomat :-)