"The Long Dark" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episodes 2X05, "The Long Dark". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
A ship with a cryogenically frozen crew, sent out to search for extraterrestrial life over a hundred years ago, arrives on B5.

Extra reading:

The article for "The Long Dark" at Lurker's Guide.

Comments

Two things

[londonkds.livejournal.com]

The final shot of the demony thing in G'Kar's book really creeped me out the first time I watched this.

In my opinion, the only decent B5 episode to feature anything that can be described as a "monster". (Compare Infection, Grail, Gray 17 Is Missing... All crap.)

Re: Two things

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

The Gray 17 monster is pretty awful, but I will never think that episode is crap, because I love the Neroon and Marcus bits so much. Neroon is right to be concerned about Delenn's arrogant grab for power (and I say this as somebody who adores her), and the fight between he and Marcus and their interaction at the end are just awesome. So call it 1/2 crap, to me at least.

Re: Two things

[blackpaladin.livejournal.com]

Agreed; the Neroon/Marcus plot is pretty much the only thing that makes Gray 17 worth watching.

Even JMS went public after that episode aired and said the following: "The Jeremiah thread was one of those things that looks great on paper, but when you get it into a camera...I dunno, it's one of those weirdnesses that happens in television. Sometimes you've got what you think is an average script and it just roars to life on-camera, and something that looks great on paper, but in real life...ehh...I'm happy with all the other stuff in the episode, but the Jeremiah thread didn't come off as it should've."

Re: Two things

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I like what JMS was trying to say in that episode very much (that is, if he was trying to say what I think he was trying to say!) The ideas almost save it, although the resulting execution missed the mark.

I will say it was my then-8-year-old's favorite episode for a while. The dummy just creeped him out, and Garibaldi's one of his favorite characters. Maybe we're just the wrong age? :)

Re: Two things

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

I quite liked Gray 17. Only the eventual monster ending (and the truly cringe-worthy lack of science in the killing) was particularly bad. The early sureal quality of Garibladi searching an entire lost level of B5, only to be drugged by a severed puppet head was especially satisfying. And Jeremiah was quite cool.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

You know, I had no memory of this episode and might actually have not watched it during the original run (and when rewatching, I usually go directly from Geometry of Shadows to Soul Mates, skipping the in betweens).

A better episode than last week's; I found several of Garibaldi's scenes with Amis genuinenly moving (this episode showed Garibaldi at his best), and well, I have a soft spot for Dwight Schultz in Sci Fi anyway (Barclay!). The Londo and G'Kar cameos are short but very them. On the other hand, the Franklin part of the plot suffers from the problem I tend to have with poor Steven's love interests of the week, i.e. that, except for Number One, I don't find them very interesting. Also, and here's a problem I would not have had had I watched this ep during the original run, I've seen the "woman/man out of time" plot done on various sci fi shows now, and several times found it more affecting then here. (Two Torchwood eps from s1 and s2 respectively come to mind, as well as good old TNG's Relics.)

In tandem with other early s2 episodes, this one strikes me as emphasizing how dangerous and full of mysteries unexplored space can be; a theme abandoned once we've actually met the Shadows, probably because they're supposed to be the climax of the strange old beings waiting out there, or maybe because B5 is a space station, and not a ship (presumably he'd have gone back there a lot more for Crusade if it hadn't been cancelled).

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

Like selenak, I never remember a lot about this episode. Much of my problem with this one is that the Franklin romance plot just really pissed me off to a degree that makes me not like the rest of the episode. It's just so very inappropriate, and him saying so doesn't make me excuse him. And in my mind it's unrealistic as well, because to her mind her husband hasn't been gone for years; it's been one long sleep. I just don't see falling for some other dude that fast.

I do like the ending a lot; the feeling that something bad is happening and that it ties back to the ancient evil.

Also, the Markab break my heart every time I see them now, knowing what is to come.

I enjoyed the Amis and Garibaldi parts of the episode a lot; sometimes I am surprised we don't see more PTSD from the Minbari war, but frankly there probably weren't enough combat survivors to have PTSD.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"sometimes I am surprised we don't see more PTSD from the Minbari war"

I always thought we did see quite a bit of it, just not to the debilitating extent you see it in Amis. Garibaldi's nightmares about the war (he mentions them in this episode); and possibly it exacerbated his paranoia, suspicion, inability to trust, etc.
Sinclair (even with part of his problems being from the memory-wipe), shows some signs; nightmares, his self-destructive tendencies. I would argue that Delenn shows some evidence as well. Not to mention crazy kidnapper guy in Ceremonies of Light and Dark. And Arthur. Lots and lots of effects from that war.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

I'd also argue that the entire Clark movement was a kind of mass PTSD from the war.

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't know why I said that; I wasn't really thinking it through, obviously. Oh, well.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

I found myself really enjoying this episode – it’s not one that I’d remembered particularly well, and I think I had mentally placed it in the same category as the other couple of ‘monster of the week’ episodes B5’s done. But, as other people have said, this isn’t an “Infection” or a “Grey 17”, and it’s actually my favourite of the season so far.

It’s got two things going for it – number one, it’s damned atmospheric. The whole episode’s got a real sense of impending doom to it even before the monster is revealed, which is something that episodes like “Infection” or “Grail” desperately needed. Hell, there’s something vaguely creepy about just the Copernicus’ automated greeting in the teaser. It probably helps that we never get to see what the Monster looks like – personally, I’ve always felt “Grey 17” only really falls apart when we actually see the Zarg…

The other thing it’s got going for it is enough appearances by G’Kar and Londo and the League Worlds and ominous foreshadowing to make this feel like a proper part of the series, and not just a standalone that could have happened on any show. It’s rather nice to see a show where the main characters aren’t ridiculously sceptical in the face of pretty clear evidence, and that Sheridan was paying attention to G’Kar in “Revelations”, even if he’s still not sure how much he should believe.

Minor notes:

- Whats-her-name, the Copernicus survivor, must win some sort of award for the least interesting of Franklin’s never-seen-again love interests. Doesn’t help her that the episode itself stops focusing on her fairly early on – understandable; the Amos plot is more interesting and better tied into the B5 setting, but she ends up feeling more like a red-herring than an integral part of the story.

- So, just how intelligent was the Soldier of Darkness? Smart enough to set course for Z’ha’dum, sure, but dumb enough to think hitchhiking on sublight ships was a better option than waiting for another ship to pick up Amos. It would have been lucky to reach the rim before the *next* Shadow War started!

- I really like the look of the picture in the Book of G’Quan at the end of the episode.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I like this episode a lot. I think it's one of the best so far, despite the awful Stephen romance of the week. I agree with others that here we see Garibaldi at his best. He takes the Lurker seriously enough to find out just exactly what his past was and to try to understand.

Sheridan is a surprise here. I didn't expect him to take the whole 'something out there' thing so seriously. Every time I watch the series, I get a whole new feeling about Sheridan. I am watching him grow this time, seeing what a good leader he really is and seeing what sort of amn he is becoming. And I like him.

Just hearing the words 'Z’ha’dum' makes me shiver to think of the future. And one of my favorite scenes in the entire series is when G'kar looks in his book and sees the drawing of the shadow. It's not a subtle foreshadowing by any means but it still kicks ass!

[marphilly.livejournal.com]

A very strong episode, especially with Dwight Schultz, a great favorite of mine.

[imhilien.livejournal.com]

A good and creepy episode, and I agree with others that the Stephen Romance was inappropriate. :(

I know I got a chill when I saw a picture of the alien in G'kar's book at the end. That book is fairly thick, too, and made me wonder after the first viewing how many other 'warnings' were in there.

In 'Babylon Squared', when Sinclair had a flash-forward to a bad future where the station was being attacked, I think people were yelling about things 'coming through the walls'. Brr.

The episode also confirmed that some species like their food so fresh, it will crawl off the plate if it can. Oh dear...

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"In 'Babylon Squared', when Sinclair had a flash-forward to a bad future where the station was being attacked, I think people were yelling about things 'coming through the walls'."

Yikes, I'd never thought of that! Brr, indeed.

[kathrid.livejournal.com]

That's a nice icon, btw.

[imhilien.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I didn't make it myself, but it got my attention as soon as I saw it (and credited the maker, of course). :)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Not much to add. This is one of my least favorite episodes. I liked the Amis/monster part better this time, but still felt it was overdone. The best bits with Amis for me, and the saddest ones, were when he regained lucidity. Those brief interludes, when he couldn't remember what he'd been doing, but knew he'd done something--that must be terrifying.

I also kept flashing back to Grail. And forward to Knives.

Did G'Kar have a foretaste of what it would be like when he will be the one opportuning people in the Zocalo to 'Beware!' Nice juxtaposition.


Stephen seemed totally out of character. We've only had flashes of him yet; it's like they couldn't figure out what to do with him. The first time through, I kept expecting the thing to pop out of the girl, and reveal that it had been using her to get at Stephen. Another odd thing that stood out was his mooning over 'having a family'. That just seems odd to me; kids? Aside from his fondness for the little boy in Believers, had this ever come up before, and does it again?

And lastly, why isn't ISN all over this woman! She'd be the story of the century! And what the hell does she plan to do back on Earth? Get a job? Doing what? Did she leave money in a bank account and can live off 100 years worth of interest? Who's paying for her ticket? Why isn't the military de-briefing her? What happened to the Copernicus?

Okay, more questions than answers. Did not like.

[ruuger]

Another odd thing that stood out was his mooning over 'having a family'. That just seems odd to me; kids? Aside from his fondness for the little boy in Believers, had this ever come up before, and does it again?

In the original plans, wasn't Franklin supposed to have family back on Earth? Or am I thinking about Kyle?

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Maybe...like a wife and kidlets type family? I don't remember ever reading/hearing that anywhere. I remember his father and mother and sisters from GROPOS.

I always had the impression he ended up married to his work. But at this point in the series, it seems like they have him looking for love all the time, and I can't tell whether they want him to be a 'love 'em and leave 'em' type, or a 'desperately seeking susan' type.

Okay. I admit I put that in on purpose :)

[ruuger]

Yeah, wife and two kids - or so my memory says :D

I just have this vague idea of someone saying somewhere that according to the original S1 bible Franklin was supposed to be separated from his wife who'd stayed back home with the kids. I tried searching JMSnews.com, but no hits, so could be that I'm just imagining things or remembering some old fanfic :D

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I would find his dating around even less appealing if he had a wife and kids at home.
Wish I'd found the bucks for those Asked and Answered volumes, though I don't think they're up to 'F' yet!
I wonder if they were to be separated or 'separated'. That would make a big difference.

[ruuger]

Ha! Found it! He was supposed to be divorced with two kids :)

http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-652

[nolivingman.livejournal.com]

They could have done a really interesting story about her adjustment to the future - granted, a story that's been done before - but instead it was all about love. Seriously, what became of her after this? She should turn up in a fic of yours!