"Conflicts of Interest" discussion

[ruuger]

This is the discussion post for the episode 4X12, "Conflicts of Interest". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Garibaldi gets a new job working for William Edgars. The resistance begins their counter-propaganda broadcasts.

Extra reading:
The article for "Conflicts of Interest" at The Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[selenak.livejournal.com]

The person I feel for most in this episode is Zack, caught in the crossfire between Sheridan and Garibaldi. Incidentally, why does Sheridan want the official PPG and link return? It's not like he knows about Garibadi's encounter with the Edgars minions, so "the company he keeps" must refer to the ISN interview, in which case it's a power demonstration/punishment.

Worthy of note: Zack points out that Garibaldi's behaviour is somewhat ooc, that there is something off and they should investigate that... and Sheridan dismisses it. It occurs to me this is one for the "this storyline works better with Sheridan than it would have with Sinclair" column because Sheridan doesn't actually know Garibaldi that well and so his reaction is entirely legitimate.

Ironically, Garibaldi in this particular episode doesn't act so differently than he would without Psi Corps interference, both in the positive sense (finding the missing girl and waiving his fee) and the negative (being so ticked off by Zack's following Sheridan's orders that he agrees to use his access). What is due to conditioning, imo, is his agreement to work for Edgars at the end right after deleting Lise's message unread, because investigating Edgars as we later find out was the primary reason for Bester reprogramming Garibaldi to begin with.

Speaking of: I don't think I bought the "William Edgars wants to save telepaths for philanthropic reasons from a virus" the first time around, either, but I had no idea what he would want.

Lise: got a lot of flak back in the day and still does. I'm Lise-neutral; the relationship with Garibaldi isn't that interesting to me, but neither is it objectionable. The problem is that Lise isn't that memorable a character on her own compared to others, at least not so far; otoh, I think she does come into her own in the s5 episode where she confronts Garibaldi about his drinking.

Zahtras (the other): gets a bit tiring as a running gag at this point.

Londo and G'Kar: back for the first time since Epiphanies and just for one scene, which is cruel. Sheridan's "do you want their blood on your hand" to Londo isn't half-bad as far as manipulation goes, and evidently works, though it's interesting that he assumes it will to begin with, instead of regarding Londo as a hopeless case.

[voxwoman.livejournal.com]

Lise (and Garibaldi's relationship with her) is one of the weakest-written bits in the entire series. She's too whiny, and I'm sorry, but a normal, well-adjusted woman does not marry someone 2 or 3 times her age unless it's for money. (if it's for other reasons, she's not "well adjusted" - she's got a father complex). I find her more annoying than Byron and his entire arc.

Additionally, why didn't she use Edgars' power/money to get custody of her child with Franz? That would be the NUMBER ONE thing a parent would do. I chalk that up to JMS not being a parent on his own, but it says volumes about Lise's character and none of it is good.

(I just "caught up" in my watching the series - acutally, I'm ahead now! So I can finally participate)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

"Additionally, why didn't she use Edgars' power/money to get custody of her child with Franz? That would be the NUMBER ONE thing a parent would do."

I've written the story of Lise's daughter twice because this bothers me so much. That includes the aforementioned femgen story coming up. Not a great story, but Lise's lack of gumption needs explanation.
I liked my first explanation better but you'd have to read the whole damn Telepath War to get to the punch at the end which explains what happened to Deborah.

Lise was married to Edgars less than a year btw. And Edgars did not strike me as the type to suffer prior children, or any distraction from his own needs, lightly.

[voxwoman.livejournal.com]

well, you have a point about that (which makes my first premise, that she "married for money" all the stronger, despite her protests). I always wondered if the daughter in Sleeping In Light was Franz's kid and not Michael's.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Mary Garibaldi's only 16 (younger than David Sheridan.)

I always figured Lise married for security. That's why she couldn't stay with Garibaldi; he was too unstable.

[voxwoman.livejournal.com]

married 3 times in as many years? Not exactly "stable" LOL!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I didn't say Lise was stable, I said she craved security (which you know, unstable people might well do). You guys are a little rough on Lise...she was left by Garibaldi, divorced her 1st husband due to his adultery, and her 2nd husband was murdered. A little soap opera-ish, but doesn't exactly indicate she's into casual serial relationships!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I hate the whole Garibaldi storyline with a passion. But really, wanting the gun and link back? Garibaldi should have turned it in when he resigned. It's part of the B5 charter that no one is armed except Security, and (some) of the command staff. No guns allowed. No one outside EarthForce wears a link either.

As a total aside, I thought Sheridan having a second weapon (Z'ha'dum) was an interesting plot point.

And Lise has some interesting points. She's one of the characters I picked to write about for femgenficathon this year.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

But really, wanting the gun and link back? Garibaldi should have turned it in when he resigned.

Yes, or back when he gave Zack the security codes. But a) why didn't Zack ask for them then, and b) why does Sheridan know Garibaldi still has them?

Is your Lise story already posted?

[ruuger]

But a) why didn't Zack ask for them then, and b) why does Sheridan know Garibaldi still has them?

I've always thought that Zack never asked them back because he didn't want to accept the fact that Garibaldi was really leaving. And Garibaldi took advantage of this and didn't turn them over voluntarily because a gun can be useful when investigating something in downbelow and with the link he could probably keep an eye on what was going on in Security.

(and then Sheridan found out about the gun and link from some random security report or something and decided to use them to put Garibaldi down a peg because he was having a bad day)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

We cross-posted!

Garibaldi really, really wanted to have it both ways. Maybe that's him fighting conditioning or whatever, but it's also very Garibaldi. I sometimes wonder if he was waiting for everyone to beg him to come back, or for things to fall apart and he'd be needed. He said that about Stephen once, that sometimes you walk away to see who'll follow you into hell? And his loyalty, to my mind, was always more to Sinclair personally than to EarthForce or certainly to Sheridan.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Zack was still halfway in la-la land thinking Garibaldi will come back. Sheridan knows because it's his job to know. He's cutting Garibaldi some slack due to what he thinks/thought was their friendship. I go back and forth as to whether they ever really were friends, or just people who got thrown together in a situation where they learned to rely on each other.

No, I haven't posted any of them. I had one of those prompts that was so generic you could write anybody, so I picked Women Who Get No Stories for $.02.

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

This was actually one episode where I thought Garibaldi DID act like Garibaldi even down to his tearing Sheridan a new one. Still not fond of the story line and never could really see Garibaldi and Lise as a couple. The whole Edgars thing stunk to high heaven from the start anyway.

It was good to see G'karr and Londo. I half expected G'Kar to comment when Sheridan mentioned they'd have all that blood on their hands if they did nothing. The wors were just waiting to be said that Londo already had so much bloob on his hands that a little more wouldn't even be noticed.

I loved the end, Ivanova as the voice of truth!

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Ugh, Lise. They might as well have had a cardboard cut-out with "Plot Point and Something to Make Garibaldi More Sympathetic Because He's Kind of An Ass Right Now" written on it, and it would have worked just as well.

The telepath virus thing was a little bit too confusing and complicated to use as a MacGuffin, but it never really came into play other than to let Edgars do his whole Snidely Whiplash thing later on, so we'd know he was a Bad Guy.

(Can you tell this isn't my favorite episode?)

[voxwoman.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Maybe this all goes under the heading "things that needed to be wrapped up in Season 4 because Season 5 was not in the cards when it was written" - I've always thought some of these minor storylines happened just a bit too fast and rushed - this one is probably the most egregious. This whole Garabaldi subplot would probably have been more believable if it had an entire season to develop (and probably given a chance and adding a third dimension to Lise).

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

You know, part of this is definitely it when it comes to Garibaldi's storyline; I felt like we missed some of the journey from Point A (Garibaldi taken, programmed, starts to behave differently) to Point C (the Edgars plot), which meant Point C kinda felt...there.

I think part of the problem, though, is not just its development but what felt like its ultimate purpose - from a narrative standpoint, Garibaldi is programmed and hooks up with Edgars and goes through all of that...just to betray Sheridan, to get him to that interrogation. I mean, there's really no other major point to that whole saga, from a plot standpoint. I suppose one could argue character reasons, but since Garibaldi and Sheridan are buddy-buddy right after the whole programming deal comes out, not so much there - so maybe a tiny slice of bringing Garibaldi back to Lise. Now, that plot point would be fine, but honestly? The programming thing is what doesn't work for me. Taking a season getting Garibaldi to the point that he's willing, mind his own, to betray Sheridan? Good plot. Taking a season watching Garibaldi succumb to some outside force to find out that Bester's used him for his own purposes? Good plot. But for whatever reason, combining the two just ended up...messy. The emotional resonance of Garibaldi's betrayal doesn't track because how much of it is his own agency and how much is his programming? And the revelation of just why Garibaldi's been acting so strange, and what happened to him after his abduction, ends up being kind of a let-down; to me, at any rate.

Eh, I don't know. I'm not fond of "so and so was programmed to do something" plots in general, because it just feels like a cheap way to have a character act out of character to get to a desired plot point.

I might not have had a problem with Lise had she been cast differently. That actress was just wretched.

[voxwoman.livejournal.com]

actually, there sort of is a plot point beyond Sheridan's betrayal. It ties in with the Markab disease and as backstory for Crusade. At least that/s how I see it.

Also, if he could have taken his time, I don't necesarily see JMS letting Garibaldi off the hook as easily as he did.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

Ah, I haven't gotten to Crusade yet. Although I'm not a fan of setting up new shows at the expense of the existing show, LOL.

I definitely think that a lot of it came down to the "we're canceled - no we're not!" dance there in S4. I make allowances.

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Dare I suggest that the entire Garibaldi plot this season existed purely to provide an excuse to use “Duck Amuck” here to represent Garibaldi’s situation?

Going to agree with the general consensus on Lise – I don’t dislike her, but I don’t really care about her either. She’s rather dull and forgettable, and the show doesn’t do much with what little there is about her of interest. (Is her daughter ever mentioned again?) Throw in that Garibaldi isn’t that interesting a character either, and the fact that we haven’t actually seen what their relationship was like anyway and, well, it’s hard to care that much. And are we seriously meant to believe she didn’t marry Edgars purely for the money? Because, hell, I’d actually have more respect for her if that was the reason.

I am amused that the choice of flashbacks here doesn’t just restablish who Lise is, it also reminds us that Garibaldi left the woman he ‘was going to marry, once upon a time’ to be with Sinclair…

The Zathras scene goes on a little too long, I think, especially since he’s never mentioned again.

Kind of interesting that the Centauri have legends of the Drakh – I wonder if G’Kar and Londo ever got the chance to compare notes about what each of their cultures recorded about the last Shadow war…

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Dare I suggest that the entire Garibaldi plot this season existed purely to provide an excuse to use “Duck Amuck” here to represent Garibaldi’s situation?

*jaw drops*

But of course!

I am amused that the choice of flashbacks here doesn’t just restablish who Lise is, it also reminds us that Garibaldi left the woman he ‘was going to marry, once upon a time’ to be with Sinclair…

True. Clearly, we needed the reminder of Garibaldi's romantic priorities. :)

Kind of interesting that the Centauri have legends of the Drakh – I wonder if G’Kar and Londo ever got the chance to compare notes about what each of their cultures recorded about the last Shadow war…

I've seen it suggested that the Centauri were Shadow allies back in the day as well, but then the Vorlons would not have bothered to modify their gene pool, and in s5 when Lyta has her flashback we see a Centauri baby as well. Otoh, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that Cartagia wasn't the first Emperor to assume he can become a god via the back-up of some superbeings. But to answer your question, I think they could have talked about that when they were stuck together in a cell on Centauri Prime in late s5...