"Between the Darkness and the Light" discussion

[ruuger]

Sorry for the lateness of this.

This is the discussion post for the episode 4X19, "Between the Darkness and the Light". Spoilers for the whole of the series, including the spin-offs and tie-ins, are allowed here so newbies beware.

Summary:
Ivanova continues to lead the fleet against Clark's forces while Franklin, Lyta and Garibaldi set out to rescue Sheridan.

Extra reading:
The article for "Between the Darkness and the Light" at The Lurker's Guide.

Comments

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, this is pretty obviously the point where the compression of the plot becomes obvious. The annoying thing is that there’s scenes that could have easily been cut to make room for more time on the hideously truncated Garibaldi plot – The ‘who gulped’ scene goes on too long, there’s no real reason for Garibaldi to get stabbed. For that matter, the opening scene of Sheridan being tortured seems unnecessary; after last episode, it seems to me it’d be more effective if we didn’t see Sheridan again until he’s rescued. Cut all of them for a proper confrontation between Sheridan and Garibaldi and the episode would be a lot stronger.

(Incidentally, does it bother anyone else this season how easy it apparently is to get on and off Mars? For a world under siege by Clark’s forces, the main characters seem to have no trouble hopping back and forth between Mars and the fleet on a moment’s notice…)

The Ivanova plot – well, obviously this suffers in hindsight because Ivanova leaves the series anyway. As it is… why the speech? I mean, if the Shadow-Omega fleet had been responsible for a major attack on a civilian target, or if they had some role in Sheridan’s capture, that’d be one thing, but as it is, they’re no different from the Clark-loyal destroyers at the start of the episode; why do these ones get a big dramatic speech directed at them? It’d be an over-the-top speech even if it was directed against Clark personally – against generic nameless warships, it’s very hard to take seriously.

And Marcus – you know, I actually kind of like the early Susan/Marcus scenes, when he’s funny and fairly openly flirting with her. When he’s hovering over her saying “You’ll never know…” – yeah, welcome to Creepyville.

Obviously, these are all related to the end of the season being rushed; I suspect even having one more episode here would have solved these problems.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Mars: overtones of Hogan's Heroes? More seriously, going to and leaving Mars certainly became easier after Marcus and Franklin did it the first time around, complete with complicated eternal journey in someone's cargo bay and secret passwords. :) Though I don't think you can blame JMS for not wanting to go through those scenes every time he needed to move the characters when s4 was overcrowded already.

Marcus:...yes, though I'd put it more kindly. I think Marcus was in love with being in love, with adoring Ivanova in a knight and lady fashion; if Susan had ever grabbed him and had sex with him, it would have fallen apart after a month at utmost, between their mutual hang-ups. It was very much a Don Quichotte and Dulcinea thing; can't you just hear Marcus intoning "to love pure and chaste from afar"?

[4thofeleven.livejournal.com]

True - I don't actually mind Sheridan getting off-world easily; it might have been interesting to keep him stuck on Mars until the end of the civil war, but it doesn't bother me that much. Actually, my main issue is I'm not sure why it was necessary for Franklin to leave Mars, when he goes back again a few episodes later and doesn't really do much on B5.

Lennier's a bad influence on Marcus, I think.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

I think the main reason Franklin went back was so he could have the "you're doing WHAT with the telepaths?" scene on B5 and not on Mars. Which I can sort of see the necessity for; since this is the super secret plan, Sheridan wouldn't risk broadcasting it to Mars from B5, and Franklin did need to be told (and have time to be shocked) before the plan was actually set in motion, otherwise his going along with it without protest would have felt severely ooc.

Or vice versa?

[nhpw.livejournal.com]

I do like this episode. I really do. I have very few complaints about it and usually just sit back and enjoy. But this is about the point in the series where I start thinking - if I had a time machine, what would I do? I'd go back, and I'd find '90s JMS, and I'd tell him - "Listen. Have a little faith. DON'T RUSH SEASON 4, because at the last second you're going to get picked up by TNT and you're going to get a 5th season that you can play out the way you want to." A whole slew of icky plot things could be avoided this way.

But, as I don't have a time machine, I will just reiterate that I mostly like this episode. But I do feel like we were cheated out of a Sheridan-Garibaldi confrontation which, as I understand it, was filmed but cut for time. I think other scenes could very well have been cut to make time for this one, which was pretty damned important.

[kungfuwaynewho.livejournal.com]

I love this episode. I acknowledge all complaints and think they're mostly valid, but it kind of doesn't matter. I have watched Ivanova's speech and John and Delenn's reunion a bazillion times, and yeah. I really love this episode too much to be analytical about it.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Didn't have time to rewatch until now, hence the belated comment.

As has been said: were this fanfic, it would be a blatant fix-it. Garibaldi disgraced? Wham, he's rehabilitated. Sheridan captured and tortured? Wham, he's free and recovered with lightning speed, able to assume command of the Agamemnon. All this being said, I had forgotten the guard's rant about tv and the "liberal media elite" to Garibaldi, which cracked me up (as JMS' potshots at conservatives go, this is one of the best), and consider the entire liberation sequence worth it.

Ivanova's big speech: I didn't have a problem with it being directed at an anonymous fleet; Delenn's big "he is behind me; you are in front of me; if you value your lives, be elsewhere" speech wasn't directed at big names, either. Claudia Chistian delivers it beautifully.

Something else I had forgotten: this is where we get our first clear indication that Lyta's modified powers now exceed even a P12. (She had been able to block Bester in Epiphanies but that proved only an equal level; being able to by pass his own blocks means hers are stronger.) Perhaps even more importantly, this is also where Lyta, previously very much "I can't do that!" about scanning people without permission, starts to use her powers to get what she wants if necessary, as seen by her projecting Garibaldi's memories into Number One.

Londo, G'Kar and League of Non-Alligned Worlds: I like the fact that here the League members don't need to be tricked or intimidated but agree on the support by their own decisions (and the Londo-G'Kar double teaming, of course).

Not all defectors being genuine but some spying for Clark: glad that came up, because it sounds plausible this would happen.

...in conclusion: I, too, wish JMS had known sooner he'd get season 5 and would have dispersed the good scenes here across various episodes, but as blatant fix-its go, this isn't the worst.

[widsidh.livejournal.com]

Only just watched this, and too tired to try an make intelligent comments (beyond asserting that I really like it - especially Ivanova's speech, which I'm sure with more time would have been given more context).

Favourite scene (one of my favourites of the series): the attack is over, everyone relaxes, Marcus shouts as a big piece of debris suddenly appears, and Ivanova throws up her arms defensively and ducks. It is such a human reaction, and so utterly futile: for me it encapsulates the smallness of the individual in the face of the Universe.